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  • Avoidable incidents

    Hey all,

    I figured this is probably the best place to ask a question I've been really curious about for quite some time.

    What percentage, or how many injuries/incidents are caused by a rider pushing a bad situation, or doing something that they knew they probably shouldn't be doing?

    Every time I tell someone I'm learning to ride, or that I was planning to, I kept getting told how dangerous it is and how I'd be a temporary Australian etc. It got me wondering though, when I saw bikes lanesplitting at 100kph+ on the freeway when everyone was doing 80-90 and seeing a few closeish calls, how many incidents are due to riders doing stuff they know they're *probably* shouldn't be doing, or pushing a bad situation, as opposed to how many are due to the rider not being at fault or having no time or opportunity to avoid a crash.

    TL;DR - how many riders come a cropper due to doing stupid stuff and taking a gamble vs those who are riding smart and run out of luck?
    -- Officially the 8th member of the Jester Club --
    Originally posted by Ryanoceros
    Umm excuse me grandpa, but I'm really good at breaking VTRs so you better watch out

  • #2
    It's entirely possible to be aware of your surroundings, avoid risky situations, ride within your limits and be relatively safe.

    Anyone that tells you otherwise either likes blaming everyone else for their shitty circumstance or can't ride a motorcycle properly.

    Comment


    • #3
      Subjective to the rider of the bike.

      Ms boeman is learning to ride. Her even being on the freeway at the moment would be reckless, so a crash could in fact be contributed to her doing something as stupid as riding on roads she isn't ready for.

      Alternatively, some local maddog could be doing a wheelie over the Mt Henry bridge like he does every morning, and find a drunk driver coming the wrong way down the freeway and aiming for him. Local maddog wasn't more at risk from the wheelie, he got unlucky that Captain Rockingham was out on a bender.

      Comment


      • #4
        So you don't know anyone that rides then? to get all those comments?

        More than half would be cager error, the other rider error, how you ride will determine how safe you are

        Comment


        • #5
          Like anyone on the road (not just bikes) it is upto the individual. Exact percentages I cant give you but what I do know is it would be on the high side when it comes to cagers not seeing bikes or just being arrogant towards riders as they think Im wrapped in 1.5 tons of steel he can get out my way and if he hits me I'll be ok.
          The common phrase is " sorry mate I didn't see you". I think more the point is they couldn't give two fucks most drivers these days drive with blinkers on, doing make up, texting on their phones, doing their hair blah, blah, blah you get the drift..
          No road to rough no muff to tough.

          Comment


          • #6
            FWIW - the only 2 times I have had an off were 1) doing something reasonable, but had cold tyres and dirt/gravel on the road. 2) Someone purposely knocked me off. Having done some stupid stuff on the roads too, from my experience I can say that the 'normal' stuff is just as dangerous... If not more as you are not as focused while doing it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Philcee View Post

              What percentage, or how many injuries/incidents are caused by a rider pushing a bad situation, or doing something that they knew they probably shouldn't be doing?
              Probably the same number of incidents (pro rata) as for cars
              the big difference is the injuries.

              If I'm a dick and end up in someone's lounge room, I'm far more likely to walk away from it if I was In a car.

              Same as, remember that time you were driving along, there was something on the road "Bang" bit of a noise, carry on " hmm, wonder what that was?"
              On a bike you may have plenty of time to find out what it was, as you pick up the rest of the pieces that surrounded you, as you pick yourself off the road.
              Note: this may not be the universe where the above is relevant.

              Comment


              • #8
                Problem is that a guy who's a great and safe rider one week, can be a total dick the next week, if his mood changes in between.
                It's 'Jekkyle and Hyde-ish', a very safe rider can be very 'unsafe' at other times, depending on a lot of circumstances that you may have no knowledge of, or control/influence over.
                Who can tell when the other guy is gonna have a brain snap unexpectedly out of the blue?
                Expect the unexpected I guess is the thing - ALWAYS.
                OMMV

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Philcee View Post
                  Hey all,

                  I figured this is probably the best place to ask a question I've been really curious about for quite some time.

                  What percentage, or how many injuries/incidents are caused by a rider pushing a bad situation, or doing something that they knew they probably shouldn't be doing?
                  I'd suggest (no stats to back this up, but) that this number would probably be in the order of 70-80%

                  I am including "something they probably shouldn't be doing" to include riding around in car blind spots, running lights, not head checking intersections, etc. Not so much "riding above the speed limit", but "riding beyond your ability to react within your range of visibility" would be included. You SHOULD be riding under the assumption that others may fail to give way to you, and taking appropriate precautions because as a motorcyclist you are difficult to see (and if seen your single headlight can look like a car from way further away) and people are looking out for cars, not bikes. And some people are just wankers and will put out irrespective of whether you are visible and seen or not.

                  Every time I tell someone I'm learning to ride, or that I was planning to, I kept getting told how dangerous it is and how I'd be a temporary Australian etc. It got me wondering though, when I saw bikes lanesplitting at 100kph+ on the freeway when everyone was doing 80-90 and seeing a few closeish calls, how many incidents are due to riders doing stuff they know they're *probably* shouldn't be doing, or pushing a bad situation, as opposed to how many are due to the rider not being at fault or having no time or opportunity to avoid a crash.

                  TL;DR - how many riders come a cropper due to doing stupid stuff and taking a gamble vs those who are riding smart and run out of luck?
                  Counter-intuitively, I feel far safer splitting at >100 km/h when traffic is flowing about that speed (say, above 80-90km/h) than I do splitting at 30km/h through stopped traffic. Cars that are flowing at speed are much more predictable (and less aggressive in their behavior generally) and more widely spaced than cars that are sitting in a queue, pissed off and figuring out how they can get ahead.

                  Yes, statistically speaking, riding a motorcycle you are FAR more likely to be seriously injured or killed on the road. There are things you can do and a a mindset you can take to eliminate or minimize the vast majority of the risks, but this requires you to be pro-active regarding your own safety, take personal responsibility for your own safety and not just leave things to chance by assuming that other drivers will do the right thing.

                  Some drivers will NOT do the right thing, either out of incompetence, malice or whatever. Who is at fault doesn't really matter if you are the one seriously injured or killed.

                  Originally posted by boeman View Post
                  Alternatively, some local maddog could be doing a wheelie over the Mt Henry bridge like he does every morning, and find a drunk driver coming the wrong way down the freeway and aiming for him. Local maddog wasn't more at risk from the wheelie, he got unlucky that Captain Rockingham was out on a bender.


                  Personally, I disagree. Sure captain rockingham should have been on his side of the road, but mad-dog chose to increase his level of risk by wheelying over the bridge. Comes back to relying on other drivers to do the right thing above. Don't do that. If you are planning to do something like that (wheelie over the bridge, or whatever), make sure you have sufficient buffer space to enable you to react appropriately to others doing dumb shit. Because others WILL do dumb shit occasionally.

                  To be clear: Not saying "wheelies are bad mmmmkay!"
                  Am saying: time/place. you need to manage the risks.
                  Last edited by thro; 13-11-2014, 12:39 PM.
                  “Crashing is shit for you, shit for the bike, shit for the mechanics and shit for the set-up,” Checa told me a while back. “It’s a signal that you are heading in the wrong direction. You want to win but crashing is the opposite. It’s like being in France when you want to go to England and when you crash you go to Spain. That way you’ll never get to England!” -- Carlos Checa

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I can only talk about bunbury bike crashes 1978 - 1984 when I lived there only two crashes on bikes that were fatal or badly hurt involved out of dozens had the rider doing the right thing, one was a prison guard coming home on the hwy dark wet no tail light he had no tailights cleaned up fatal by a workmate DUI falcon v8, the other hit a train outside the cemetery ring road attributed by the police to morning sun, every other fatal crash to my recollection involved alcohol high speed and riding test riding unfamiliar bikes.

                    if anyone from bunbury can remember others from bunbury in this period please correct me, I do know we had a least 6 crashes where speed was in excess of 240 estimated by the police, one of those a worked z900 on the boyanup to dardanup rd very long straights the guy was told the coppers were on the other rd he had no license I worked with him, the engine according to lore has it was on its own twenty feet up in a tree.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Philcee View Post
                      Hey all,

                      I figured this is probably the best place to ask a question I've been really curious about for quite some time.

                      What percentage, or how many injuries/incidents are caused by a rider pushing a bad situation, or doing something that they knew they probably shouldn't be doing?

                      Every time I tell someone I'm learning to ride, or that I was planning to, I kept getting told how dangerous it is and how I'd be a temporary Australian etc. It got me wondering though, when I saw bikes lanesplitting at 100kph+ on the freeway when everyone was doing 80-90 and seeing a few closeish calls, how many incidents are due to riders doing stuff they know they're *probably* shouldn't be doing, or pushing a bad situation, as opposed to how many are due to the rider not being at fault or having no time or opportunity to avoid a crash.

                      TL;DR - how many riders come a cropper due to doing stupid stuff and taking a gamble vs those who are riding smart and run out of luck?
                      This is NSW, but should give you a rough idea.

                      http://roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/38.html

                      Collisions with other vehicles - other driver at fault

                      The other vehicle in a multi-vehicle motorcycle crash was most likely to be a private car (81%) or light truck (9%).
                      Collisions with light trucks are more likely to result in severe injuries and include 19% of all fatal multi-vehicle motorcycle crashes.
                      The majority (61%) of multi-vehicle crashes are due to the action of the other driver, usually failing to see or give way to the rider.
                      Over half (57%) of all multi-vehicle collisions are at intersections and 71% of intersection crashes are due to the actions of the other driver.
                      T-junctions are the most dangerous type of intersection for riders, they account for almost a third (30%) of all collisions and 20% of all fatal collisions. Collisions at cross roads are less common (18%) but include 13% of fatal collisions.
                      A high proportion of collisions at roundabouts (73%), t-junctions (70%) and cross roads (72%) were due to the actions of the other driver.
                      Apart from intersection crashes, the most common multi-vehicle crashes due to other drivers are changing lanes (21%), emerging from a driveway (9%) and making a U-turn (8%).
                      DON'T ASSUME THEY HAVE SEEN YOU

                      Collisions with other vehicles – rider at fault

                      Rear end collisions make up 19% of crashes and more often than not it is rider into other vehicle (61%).
                      ALWAYS LEAVE A 3 SECOND GAP IN FRONT OF YOU. 4 TYRES CAN STOP QUICKER THAN 2
                      Head-on collisions make up 6% of crashes and are also more likely to be due to the rider (76%). These are not overtaking crashes, but due to the rider being on the wrong side of the road, often on a corner
                      ON CORNERS, GO IN SLOW AND WIDE, GET OUT FAST AND NARROW
                      Ryan

                      Originally posted by Aufitt
                      Try Para045, he definitely sounds all gooey in the fork for ya

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Single bike only incidents... - 100% rider error(stupid shit, ignorant of conditions, unskilled, distracted, however you want to name it for what they were attempting to do)
                        Bike vs car incidents... - 50% rider error
                        Sponsored by:

                        Billetta Imports, Motorcycle Panel & Paint, Pirelli, YAMALUBE

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm fairly new to riding myself, but this is what I've come to understand so far as a new rider, lets call it the 4 Knows;

                          1. Know your road/conditions
                          2. Know your surroundings
                          3. Know your vehicle
                          4. Know your abilities/limitations

                          "Avoidable incidents" will be avoidable if applying the 4 knows above.

                          In addition to what most have said above, SMIDSYs happen much more as a rider, bikes are faster, smaller, new blind spots that never existed when you were in a car, small objects can easily be missed at a quick glance. SMIDSYs will happen, often. Be prepared. I have avoided several SMIDSYs in 4 months of riding due to roadcraft. It's sad to say that most SMIDSYs encountered so far, drivers don't give 2 fucks.

                          I have had 2 offs that were my fault (avoidable, not SMIDSYs):
                          First off, 20km/h over sandy corner, I had noticed the hazard but didn't react/adjust riding style thru;
                          Second off was a failure of 1. above, which gave rise to the realisation of failure in 4. above.

                          For me, riding a bike is as safe as driving a car, only difference is IF you were in an incident, injuries are more severe as a rider.
                          look where you want to go~

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by HITCAITGRUS View Post
                            Problem is that a guy who's a great and safe rider one week, can be a total dick the next week, if his mood changes in between.
                            It's 'Jekkyle and Hyde-ish', a very safe rider can be very 'unsafe' at other times, depending on a lot of circumstances that you may have no knowledge of, or control/influence over.
                            Who can tell when the other guy is gonna have a brain snap unexpectedly out of the blue?
                            Expect the unexpected I guess is the thing - ALWAYS.
                            OMMV
                            Unfortunately what you have written was me, in my riding history forty bikes 1.5 million k's at time I was a risk taking dickhead and other times I was conservative I believe there is a little bit of this behavior in us all to varying degrees, its human nature to be competitive.
                            And like the two wheel guy said in his column in 1982 if you ride fast and hard you can expect to come down occasionaly, like I have said in other threads the only guy I know who is an exception to the rule was brad repacholi.
                            Another mate of ours Stan the man Donovan who raced track tz-350, had to admit to us when he played leap frog over the bonnet of a Gemini cut his scrotum on the aerial as he went over it that the accident was his fault then ended up going out with the girl who's car it was, who nursed him back to health, would have been less painful to meet her at the disco.
                            Last edited by llbuono; 13-11-2014, 01:07 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The thing is, even if you reduce your risk of an accident to that of a car, IF you have an accident on a bike, the vast majority of them will involve some form of injury.

                              Sure - that may be as small as a skinned knee or a bruise from hitting the deck, but accidents that are survivable with no injury at all in a car may result in death of a motorcyclist.

                              Riding a bike is definitely more dangerous, don't let yourself be fooled into thinking otherwise.


                              But that's part of what keeps it interesting... and how much more dangerous it is is entirely up to the rider.


                              edit:
                              and re: moods. don't ride drunk, don't ride tired and don't ride pissed off (or otherwise distracted).

                              And "legally at fault" doesn't necessarily determine whether or not the rider was doing something they "shouldn't have been doing". A car failing to give way to me may legally be his fault, but if i was riding in his blind spot, positioning myself poorly on the road or not covering my brakes ready for disaster when approaching an intersection, etc. then i was riding in a way that i probably "shouldn't have been doing".
                              Last edited by thro; 13-11-2014, 02:58 PM.
                              “Crashing is shit for you, shit for the bike, shit for the mechanics and shit for the set-up,” Checa told me a while back. “It’s a signal that you are heading in the wrong direction. You want to win but crashing is the opposite. It’s like being in France when you want to go to England and when you crash you go to Spain. That way you’ll never get to England!” -- Carlos Checa

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