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  • Turning right at traffic lights

    Done a search, can't find the answer, looked in Drive Safe book, doesn't really cover this. So.....



    Been discussing this with my bike instructor and my truck instructor and both give different opinions.

    When turning right at traffic lights, say near the test centre at Joondalup turning right from Boas ave into Grand Boulevard, my bike instructor tells me i have to stay behind the white line until i can safely get across in one go, ie NOT move forward into the intersection waiting for a gap to appear in the traffic. He says its an instant fail if i do move forward across the white line and into the intersection if my exit is not clear. This kinda sounds a bit whiffy because if you sit behind the white line and cars coming the other way are turning right in front of you then surely your vision of the oncoming traffic is restricted. It makes sense to move into the intersection where you can see better and wait for a gap.

    However, my truck instructor says the exact opposite - i.e move into the intersection, wait for a gap, then proceed when its clear.

    I've been driving for 20 years and i have always done the move forward thing, never heard of having to wait behind the line. So can anyone who's done their test at Joondalup please clarify which way is correct. It'd be just my luck to stuff the test on something stupid like that.

    cheers
    John


  • #2
    Umm, the only circumstance is that only one vehicle is allowed in the intersection (ie, turning right) at a time, like if a car has already crept forward (infront of you) you have to wait until hes left the intersection before you can move forward.

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    • #3
      ive seen it done both ways in perth but everywhere else i have lived it is always float out first... not sure what the rule is.

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      • #4
        my instructor always told me to go out into the intersection.

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        • #5
          If you want to be pedantic about the rules, you can't enter the intersection unless it's clear for you to immediately proceed through.

          Eg, you want to turn right but there is traffic coming the other way - you should stay behind the line as far as the rules are concerned.
          From a practical point, I move forwards.

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          • #6
            Just browsing the Road Traffic Code 2000 it doesn't seem to say anything prohibiting a driver from entering the intersection if he or she has right of way to make a turn. Has a few things about what to do if you are in an intersection and the lights change.

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            • #7
              meh, stuff the "rules" do what keeps u safe

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              • #8
                machast- best post so far. i agree- do what you want to keep you safe!! just make sure when you take the test you follow the rules!

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                • #9
                  I thought one vehicle at a time was allowed to cross the white line, and only if the exit to the intersection is clear. So if traffic is blocking the exit, you must stay behind the line.

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                  • #10
                    machast- best post so far. i agree- do what you want to keep you safe!! just make sure when you take the test you follow the rules![/b]

                    Best to ask the test person, cuz he'll definitely know. I always move forward to get a better look at oncoming traffic. That's the way i was taught by my instructors, and pretty much everyone else.

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                    • #11
                      as far as I am aware you have to stay behind the white line until you can turn in one hit

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                      • #12
                        Umm, the only circumstance is that only one vehicle is allowed in the intersection (ie, turning right) at a time, like if a car has already crept forward (infront of you) you have to wait until hes left the intersection before you can move forward.[/b]
                        I agree with this as it is what I was told.

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                        • #13
                          Umm, the only circumstance is that only one vehicle is allowed in the intersection (ie, turning right) at a time, like if a car has already crept forward (infront of you) you have to wait until hes left the intersection before you can move forward.[/b]
                          From what my instructor told me, the above is correct.....and this is what I did DURING my test and I passed.

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                          • #14
                            Umm, the only circumstance is that only one vehicle is allowed in the intersection (ie, turning right) at a time, like if a car has already crept forward (infront of you) you have to wait until hes left the intersection before you can move forward.[/b]
                            This is what my bike instructor told me as well... only one car/bike over the line at a time

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              http://www.perthstreetbikes.com/forum/inde...&pid=513223

                              here is a post from a while back that has the details

                              39. Effect of a circular green signal or green arrow
                              (1) If a traffic-control signal facing a driver displays a circular green signal the driver may —

                              a. proceed straight ahead; or
                              b. turn right or turn left, if the driver —

                              (i) does not conflict or interfere with pedestrians crossing the roadway;
                              (ii) does not turn the vehicle contrary to an instruction on a traffic sign at the intersection; and
                              (iii) gives way to any vehicle on the right and, if turning right, gives way to any vehicle that has entered or is approaching the intersection from the opposite direction.

                              This is just your stock standard regulation permitting vehicles to turn right on a green signal, provided they give way to oncoming traffic. This DOES NOT prohibit vehicles from entering the intersection to make a turn, it merely prohibits them from turning in front of oncoming traffic.

                              Road Traffic Code 2000 r 45 reads:

                              45. Right of way during turns at an intersection with traffic-control signals
                              (1) A driver who intends to turn, is turning or has turned, right at an intersection with traffic-control signals shall give way to any
                              oncoming vehicle that is going straight ahead or turning left at the intersection (except a vehicle turning left using a slip lane).

                              Same thing again. Must give way to oncoming traffic when turning right at the lights.

                              Road Traffic Code 2000 r 44 reads:

                              44. What to do if signals change when intersection congested, etc.

                              (1) This regulation applies to a driver —

                              a. if a traffic-control signal facing the driver displays a circular green signal at an intersection and the driver has stopped after the stop line, “stop here on red signal” sign, or nearest or only traffic lights, at the intersection; or
                              b. if a traffic-control signal facing the driver at an intersection displays a green traffic arrow and the driver is turning in the direction indicated by the arrow but the driver has stopped after the stop line, “stop here on red arrow” sign, or nearest or only traffic arrows, at the intersection.

                              Reg. 44(1)(a) appears to be applicable in the situation described by the original post, so this regulation applies.

                              (2) Subject to this regulation, if the traffic-control signals change to yellow or red while a driver is stopped and the driver has not
                              fully entered the intersection, the driver shall not begin to enter the intersection, or proceed further into the intersection.

                              Points: 3 Modified penalty: 3 PU

                              I read this section to mean: if you have crept out past the stop line / traffic light in execution of your right turn with a circular green signal (which is lawful under r 39 above) and have stopped for any reason, e.g. to give way to oncoming traffic (which is prescribed by rr 39 and 45 above), or because of mechanical failure (breakdown) or human error (stalling), it is unlawful for you to begin to enter the intersection or proceed further into it. You must instead camp there and wait for the next green signal, or reverse back over the stop line (traffic permitting).

                              The regulation continues:

                              (4) If the traffic-control signals change to yellow or red while the driver is stopped and the driver has fully entered the intersection, the driver shall leave the intersection as soon as the driver can do so safely.

                              Modified penalty: 2 PU

                              I read this section to mean: if you have fully entered the intersection in execution of your right turn with a circular green signal and have stopped for any reason, and the lights change to yellow or red, you MUST leave the intersection as soon as you can do so safely (i.e. after you have let the idiot running the yellow/red light to proceed through). If you don't leave the intersection when it is safe to do so, you have committed an offence.

                              If the photograph shows you camping past the stop line, you have not committed any offence; you were simply complying with your obligation to "not begin to enter the intersection, or proceed further into the intersection" under r 44(2).

                              If the photograph shows you sitting in the middle of the intersection, you have not committed any offence; you were simply complying with your obligation to "leave the intersection as soon as the driver can do so safely" under r 44(4). The wording of the sub-regulation is a concession that no citizen should be held liable for failing to comply with a law that unreasonably jeopardises their safety. Not your fault that you had to sit in the middle of an intersection while Mr Red Light Runner cleared it.

                              The only way I can see that the Road Traffic Code can be brought to bear upon you is if a police officer witnessed you:

                              * proceed past the stop line, stop, wait for the lights to change to yellow/red and then scoot though; or
                              * fail to reasonably give way to oncoming traffic; or
                              * stop in the middle of an intersection, wait for the lights to change to yellow/red and then not clear the intersection even though it was safe for you to do so.

                              In the absence of eyewitness testimony, it can't be proved beyond reasonable doubt that you committed any offence.

                              I don't know where this "$30,000 to fight a traffic fine" line comes from, but it will not cost that at all if you elect to have the matter dealt with by the Magistrates Court. I would write to Infringement Management and Operations first, setting out your side of the story and asking that the matter be withdrawn for those reasons. If your story is solid enough the letter will be referred to the State Solicitor's Office for legal advice (which will probably be "withdraw the charge"). If this doesn't happen, you can elect to have the matter dealt with by the Magistrate's Court. A summons will be served and you will need to file a defence, again setting out your side of the story. This time the popo MUST get legal advice, and the legal advice here would be that there is not enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you are guilty of any offence. Charge withdrawn, total cost $38 or thereabouts.

                              But hey I'm not a lawyer, so please don't take this as legal advice. If I were you I'd speak to a solicitor.[/b]

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