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  • How to pass the RE PDA??

    I was feeling quite confident and preponed my PDA. However, ended up having an automatic fail due to not leaving sufficient buffer between myself and the oncoming Transperth bus. I was between P1 and P2. He wanted me to be in P1. Nailed everything else (O turns, emergency brake etc).

    How do I nail the PDA? I found the examiner to be very different to how I trained (he didn't want me to gear down to first during emergency braking and made me do it again without gearing down).

    I find it ridiculous that the state law doesn't allow me to learn unsupervised without a shadow (unlike Vic and NSW). I can't even go to the examination without a shadow without spending $250 each exam. These motorcycle rules are very archaic.


  • #2
    Well I guess next time, don't get too close to a bus? If you did everything else well, there's no problem. I hear your vent on costs - you could always ask if anyone is available to shadow you to your next test attempt and that generally sets you back a token gesture of goodwill, which is less than $250.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mandok View Post

      How do I nail the PDA? I found the examiner to be very different to how I trained (he didn't want me to gear down to first during emergency braking and made me do it again without gearing down).

      I find it ridiculous that the state law doesn't allow me to learn unsupervised without a shadow (unlike Vic and NSW). I can't even go to the examination without a shadow without spending $250 each exam. These motorcycle rules are very archaic.
      In an EMERGENCY, you need to stop the bike not be stuffing around with the gears. I sort off understand why you might go down but....(sounds like your instructor is out of touch with the examination procedure)

      Why on earth would anyone be allowed to ride unsupervised without a licence? What would be the point in getting a licence if you can ride around without a shadow and no licence?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by datsikk View Post

        In an EMERGENCY, you need to stop the bike not be stuffing around with the gears. I sort off understand why you might go down but....(sounds like your instructor is out of touch with the examination procedure)

        Why on earth would anyone be allowed to ride unsupervised without a licence? What would be the point in getting a licence if you can ride around without a shadow and no licence?
        In NSW & VIC, they teach dropping down to 1st gear as you're performing your emergency stop - there's no stuffing about - it comes quite naturally after you've practiced it. The idea is, if you have to stop behind something real quick, instead of crashing into it (say, a truck or car) you can quickly accelerate away if there's someone about to ram up your rear end.. instead of stuffing around with gears.. trying to move out of the way. WA is WAY behind in motorcycle instruction & licensing.

        Comment


        • #5
          Go out on your sportsbike at around 60 kmh pull that front brake on keep accelerating when it starts to lock in a straight line that's your limit then go back you have usually left a skid mark 20 feet long or so.

          New riders are scared of losing the front fuck abs use the front learn the limits.

          Trail brake into the apex and past it if you have too even in the wet most guys could take the corner if they knew trail braking!

          Practice practice or become a statistic!

          Last edited by Kelly.999; 13-05-2020, 10:17 PM. Reason: Edited due to poor spelling

          Comment


          • #6
            I have some free time now i am back in WA i have been teaching a lot of guys around Baldivis already pre covid 19 but anyone South of the river that needs a shadow or wants to learn how to brake and even trail braking if your up to it i am willing, just PM me on here fuel booze etc not needed i teach for free anyone from the triumph club on Facebook already knows who i am Jim.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mandok View Post
              I find it ridiculous that the state law doesn't allow me to learn unsupervised without a shadow (unlike Vic and NSW). I can't even go to the examination without a shadow without spending $250 each exam. These motorcycle rules are very archaic.
              I personally think this is one of the dumbest things regarding motorcycle licencing from the east coast
              You're not allowed to get in a car and drive around by yourself and yet they let you ride a MC alone with no one to watch your mistakes/give you advice etc while riding a 2 wheeled vehicle which takes a 1000% more skill/awareness/forethought than a car Why not let people drive a semi by themselves as well when learning
              Learning to ride a MC and then riding after getting your licence is one of the riskiest things you can do on the roads and you think it's a good idea to be able to do it without anyone training you how to do it
              #1 Gold Ticket Holder for the Barfridge Fan Club
              Originally posted by Phildo
              Noted. We'll check back on that one in three years
              Originally posted by filbert
              i'll pretend you didn't know she was 13

              98 BADASS TITANIUM BLACKBIRD - Past bikes 1982 XS250 Yamaha & 1983 CB750F with 900 motor
              Ozblackbird.net Administrator

              Comment


              • #8
                I think the reasoning behind permitting people to ride without a shadow over east comes down to 3 things:
                1) Risk analysis in relation to *other* road users. This thought process also applies to 16 year olds being able to get their scooter licence earlier than their car licence. The risk is infinitely higher for the motorcyclist (or scooter rider) but the risk of them doing harm to others is infinitely smaller than if they were in a car/semi etc. (Don't get me started on how you can be permitted to ride a scooter on a car licence, and at an earlier age than for other vehicles).
                2) Someone else having direct control over a motorcycle is impossible, at least in a car you can grab the handbrake or have dual controls.
                3) Not everyone has a bike licence, so availability for shadows is less (I think this is nonsense but may be an argument for it).

                I wouldn't say that requiring a shadow in WA is archaic, just another way of doing things. I too, think it's ridiculous to legally permit someone to jump on a vehicle requiring a licence, and ride around without supervision/instruction. As above, what's the point of requiring a licence? (and learning to ride you are at pretty high risk, as you are immediately after getting your licence but you have at least been deemed competent to hold said licence). Of course, here we view things differently as it's just the way it's done here and most can see merit in it, or at least accept that's the way it is. We also, on the whole, see merit in having R-E and R class licences and being required to sit a test for each whereas in the US where there's no such restriction and they would be appalled at the idea of having to go through 2 licences.

                Mandok, do you find it ridiculous or inconvenient compared to how it's done elsewhere? If ridiculous, I'd be interested in your reasoning - and it can't just be, "because NSW and VIC do it"
                Last edited by Kristy; 24-05-2020, 11:30 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kristy View Post
                  We also, on the whole, see merit in having R-E and R class licences and being required to sit a test for each whereas in the US where there's no such restriction and they would be appalled at the idea of having to go through 2 licences.
                  I think the way some other places do it (I believe the UK used to do it) where they have 2 classes as such but don't necessarily need to do a 2nd test to upgrade may have some merit
                  Similar to having restrictions on P plates, you don't need to do a 2nd test but do have to complete a certain time before getting rid of the restrictions
                  #1 Gold Ticket Holder for the Barfridge Fan Club
                  Originally posted by Phildo
                  Noted. We'll check back on that one in three years
                  Originally posted by filbert
                  i'll pretend you didn't know she was 13

                  98 BADASS TITANIUM BLACKBIRD - Past bikes 1982 XS250 Yamaha & 1983 CB750F with 900 motor
                  Ozblackbird.net Administrator

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by pnork View Post

                    In NSW & VIC, they teach dropping down to 1st gear as you're performing your emergency stop - there's no stuffing about - it comes quite naturally after you've practiced it. The idea is, if you have to stop behind something real quick, instead of crashing into it (say, a truck or car) you can quickly accelerate away if there's someone about to ram up your rear end.. instead of stuffing around with gears...
                    I kinda agree with your logic, I just wonder if we both have the same definition for "emergency". And also from what speed?

                    If you are doing 100+, you probably have time to go down a few gears. If you emergency brake from 60 (and you were in 3rd/4th) I can't imagine getting back

                    down to 1st within the time it takes to stop. (I will try it once I am back on the road)

                    Also, can you explain how someone learns if they are riding around unsupervised? The whole point of a teacher is to tell you all the things you are doing wrong?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      datsikk - so, before they get their Ls, they have to do a 2 day intensive course on a circuit where they learn all the stuff you learn anywhere else, including roadcraft. At the end of the 2 days, they need to pass a practical test that shows they are ready to ride unsupervised (this is how I remember it, anyway.) Once they are deemed ready to hit the road, they can ride (for I think) up to a year on Ls - when they are ready to sit their full license, there is another days testing, where they are *thoroughly* tested. My main gripe about needing a shadow over here is... what exactly is a shadow going to contribute, other than *after* an incident, say "you did that wrong" or, like I did when I shadowed a guy who was going for his "R" - after I caught up to him on his shiny new GSXR1000 "you know you just ran a red light?" It's pointless. Sure, might be easier if you both had comms sets while shadowing, but there's no law that says these are to be used, so it's a moot point. Over here, you can pay your money for your learners permit, sit the written test (is it still ticking boxes in a multiple choice exam?) and provided you pass that - you can throw some L plates on a bike, and with a shadow ride off into the sunset.

                      The dropping to 1st gear thing - you'd be surprised how quickly you can slam down from top to first - hand on clutch and just bang bang bang as you're coming to a stop - it's like anything else you learn when learning how to ride a bike - it becomes second nature. I can't remember for certain what speed you have to attain to do the E stop (it was quite a few moons ago when I sat it myself) but give it a go - you will need to do it several times before it becomes natural - I still do it out of habit if I practice an E stop now.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kristy View Post
                        I think the reasoning behind permitting people to ride without a shadow over east comes down to 3 things:
                        2) Someone else having direct control over a motorcycle is impossible, at least in a car you can grab the handbrake or have dual controls.
                        3) Not everyone has a bike licence, so availability for shadows is less (I think this is nonsense but may be an argument for it).

                        I wouldn't say that requiring a shadow in WA is archaic, just another way of doing things. I too, think it's ridiculous to legally permit someone to jump on a vehicle requiring a licence, and ride around without supervision/instruction. As above, what's the point of requiring a licence? (and learning to ride you are at pretty high risk, as you are immediately after getting your licence but you have at least been deemed competent to hold said licence). Of course, here we view things differently as it's just the way it's done here and most can see merit in it, or at least accept that's the way it is. We also, on the whole, see merit in having R-E and R class licences and being required to sit a test for each whereas in the US where there's no such restriction and they would be appalled at the idea of having to go through 2 licences.

                        Mandok, do you find it ridiculous or inconvenient compared to how it's done elsewhere? If ridiculous, I'd be interested in your reasoning - and it can't just be, "because NSW and VIC do it"
                        Actually, all the states (bar Queensland) allow motorbike learners to ride unsupervised.....

                        To pass the motorbike riding test, you need at least 20-30 hours of riding experience. Additionally, getting a shadow is extremely difficult and some people go to tests without getting shadowed. Many shadows are also unwilling to provide riding tips, thereby making the experience as good as riding solo. I don't think it is feasible for many people to pay riding lessons for 20-30 hours to get that experience.

                        I have held my drivers licence for 8 years and only required 4 lessons to grab the basic fundamental. I was still pretty crap after four lessons (bad at O turns and emergency braking). What really improved my skills drastically is practicing solo. I practiced O turns and emergency brake on a mate's farm and this was a far more valuable experience than getting lessons or getting a shadow and I became a confident rider. On my previous PDA, I was asked to do 10-15 O turns continuously (is that realistic??) and do the emergency braking (with and without gearing down) and succeeded with no issues.

                        The MRAWA which lobbied for the govt to toughen the rules in Nov 2018 clearly had its head in the ground.
                        • The wait time was increased by 6 months. This is a ridiculously rubbish rule. I have my drivers licence for 8 years and I still have to wait the same time as someone who is had never been on the road. I failed my first PDA and guess what? Then next available dates are a month away.... so the total time is 7 months (if I pass)….
                        • The compulsory shadow rule is absolutely ridiculous. I was lucky, I was able to find a shadow for my last PDA. I have heard of people paying $160 ($80 for lesson before hand and $80 hire for the bike - despite using yours) just to attend the PDA. This is an absolute rort by the motorcycle instructors. I know someone who has done the PDA x3 and has paid $160 each time to attend the PDA. What if I don't want the lesson and don't have a shadow for the PDA? Still $160 as I cant ride unsupervised to the PDA. This doesn't happen in NSW and Vic
                        • I have heard people having difficulties converting the WA RE licence to an International Motorbike licence, since overseas they don't have these restrictions.
                        • Motorcycle fatality rates for Vic and Nsw are actually lower than WA, another reason to prove that this system is a failure. See - https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/ro...pdf/mono20.pdf
                        • The people at MRAWA who recommended the government to toughen the rules, all got away by doing their tests in the old system. The new system now punishes by providing automatic fail for assessor intervention. Assessor intervention is highly subjective. As a result, you now have a discrepancy in pass-rates at various PDA locations. The easiest location has a 1-1.5 month wait time and the hardest location has a 1 day wait time. But guess what?? The instructors have gone and booked out all the slots at the easiest location. So if you want a higher chance of passing the PDA, book through the instructor and pay - $160.
                        After I did my PDA, my assessor himself said to come back in a week to retake the test. He mentioned that I would have passed my test if the old system was still implemented.
                        Kristy, I certainly hope the above points clarify why I think the system is ridiculous. It benefits non-one except the motorcycle instructors and DOT. The two states which follow the system (WA and QLD) have the highest motorcycle fatality rates in Australia.
                        Nonetheless, I wont be taking the test for R class. A return ticket to NSW/Vic would be cheaper and easier to get the unrestricted licence.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mandok View Post

                          Actually, all the states (bar Queensland) allow motorbike learners to ride unsupervised.....

                          To pass the motorbike riding test, you need at least 20-30 hours of riding experience. Additionally, getting a shadow is extremely difficult and some people go to tests without getting shadowed. Many shadows are also unwilling to provide riding tips, thereby making the experience as good as riding solo. I don't think it is feasible for many people to pay riding lessons for 20-30 hours to get that experience.

                          I have held my drivers licence for 8 years and only required 4 lessons to grab the basic fundamental. I was still pretty crap after four lessons (bad at O turns and emergency braking). What really improved my skills drastically is practicing solo. I practiced O turns and emergency brake on a mate's farm and this was a far more valuable experience than getting lessons or getting a shadow and I became a confident rider. On my previous PDA, I was asked to do 10-15 O turns continuously (is that realistic??) and do the emergency braking (with and without gearing down) and succeeded with no issues.

                          The MRAWA which lobbied for the govt to toughen the rules in Nov 2018 clearly had its head in the ground.
                          • The wait time was increased by 6 months. This is a ridiculously rubbish rule. I have my drivers licence for 8 years and I still have to wait the same time as someone who is had never been on the road. I failed my first PDA and guess what? Then next available dates are a month away.... so the total time is 7 months (if I pass)….
                          • The compulsory shadow rule is absolutely ridiculous. I was lucky, I was able to find a shadow for my last PDA. I have heard of people paying $160 ($80 for lesson before hand and $80 hire for the bike - despite using yours) just to attend the PDA. This is an absolute rort by the motorcycle instructors. I know someone who has done the PDA x3 and has paid $160 each time to attend the PDA. What if I don't want the lesson and don't have a shadow for the PDA? Still $160 as I cant ride unsupervised to the PDA. This doesn't happen in NSW and Vic
                          • I have heard people having difficulties converting the WA RE licence to an International Motorbike licence, since overseas they don't have these restrictions.
                          • Motorcycle fatality rates for Vic and Nsw are actually lower than WA, another reason to prove that this system is a failure. See - https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/ro...pdf/mono20.pdf
                          • The people at MRAWA who recommended the government to toughen the rules, all got away by doing their tests in the old system. The new system now punishes by providing automatic fail for assessor intervention. Assessor intervention is highly subjective. As a result, you now have a discrepancy in pass-rates at various PDA locations. The easiest location has a 1-1.5 month wait time and the hardest location has a 1 day wait time. But guess what?? The instructors have gone and booked out all the slots at the easiest location. So if you want a higher chance of passing the PDA, book through the instructor and pay - $160.
                          After I did my PDA, my assessor himself said to come back in a week to retake the test. He mentioned that I would have passed my test if the old system was still implemented.
                          Kristy, I certainly hope the above points clarify why I think the system is ridiculous. It benefits non-one except the motorcycle instructors and DOT. The two states which follow the system (WA and QLD) have the highest motorcycle fatality rates in Australia.
                          Nonetheless, I wont be taking the test for R class. A return ticket to NSW/Vic would be cheaper and easier to get the unrestricted licence.
                          I agree with your points more motorcycles especially sportsbikes are crashed in WA & QLD both are states with very few hills let alone mountains like NSW & Victoria.

                          If you can't ride a sportsbike in WA without crashing it you will really struggle to stay on one on the east coast, i got my license under the NSW system and have been riding for 42 years without crashing.

                          I am actually currently writing a book on sportsbike crashes in WA with photographs and my views of why most crashed, there are more crosses in the Perth hills from motorcyclists than there are in karrakatta for the small population here too many guys and girls die on corners in the hills here.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mandok View Post

                            Actually, all the states (bar Queensland) allow motorbike learners to ride unsupervised.....

                            To pass the motorbike riding test, you need at least 20-30 hours of riding experience. Additionally, getting a shadow is extremely difficult and some people go to tests without getting shadowed. Many shadows are also unwilling to provide riding tips, thereby making the experience as good as riding solo. I don't think it is feasible for many people to pay riding lessons for 20-30 hours to get that experience.

                            I have held my drivers licence for 8 years and only required 4 lessons to grab the basic fundamental. I was still pretty crap after four lessons (bad at O turns and emergency braking). What really improved my skills drastically is practicing solo. I practiced O turns and emergency brake on a mate's farm and this was a far more valuable experience than getting lessons or getting a shadow and I became a confident rider. On my previous PDA, I was asked to do 10-15 O turns continuously (is that realistic??) and do the emergency braking (with and without gearing down) and succeeded with no issues.

                            The MRAWA which lobbied for the govt to toughen the rules in Nov 2018 clearly had its head in the ground.
                            • The wait time was increased by 6 months. This is a ridiculously rubbish rule. I have my drivers licence for 8 years and I still have to wait the same time as someone who is had never been on the road. I failed my first PDA and guess what? Then next available dates are a month away.... so the total time is 7 months (if I pass)….
                            • The compulsory shadow rule is absolutely ridiculous. I was lucky, I was able to find a shadow for my last PDA. I have heard of people paying $160 ($80 for lesson before hand and $80 hire for the bike - despite using yours) just to attend the PDA. This is an absolute rort by the motorcycle instructors. I know someone who has done the PDA x3 and has paid $160 each time to attend the PDA. What if I don't want the lesson and don't have a shadow for the PDA? Still $160 as I cant ride unsupervised to the PDA. This doesn't happen in NSW and Vic
                            • I have heard people having difficulties converting the WA RE licence to an International Motorbike licence, since overseas they don't have these restrictions.
                            • Motorcycle fatality rates for Vic and Nsw are actually lower than WA, another reason to prove that this system is a failure. See - https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/ro...pdf/mono20.pdf
                            • The people at MRAWA who recommended the government to toughen the rules, all got away by doing their tests in the old system. The new system now punishes by providing automatic fail for assessor intervention. Assessor intervention is highly subjective. As a result, you now have a discrepancy in pass-rates at various PDA locations. The easiest location has a 1-1.5 month wait time and the hardest location has a 1 day wait time. But guess what?? The instructors have gone and booked out all the slots at the easiest location. So if you want a higher chance of passing the PDA, book through the instructor and pay - $160.
                            After I did my PDA, my assessor himself said to come back in a week to retake the test. He mentioned that I would have passed my test if the old system was still implemented.
                            Kristy, I certainly hope the above points clarify why I think the system is ridiculous. It benefits non-one except the motorcycle instructors and DOT. The two states which follow the system (WA and QLD) have the highest motorcycle fatality rates in Australia.
                            Nonetheless, I wont be taking the test for R class. A return ticket to NSW/Vic would be cheaper and easier to get the unrestricted licence.
                            Disclaimer: I don't mean to be argumentative, but I've been working at home for 2 months and haven't had a good debate in a while 😄

                            Two main points are circulating in my head in response to your post:
                            • The bottom line is having a licence is a privilege, not a right and riding a motorcycle is inherently more dangerous than driving a car. Having held previous licences doesn't mean you should be able to jump the queue as you imply, or at least, suggest is unfair. In fact, maybe those who don't have licences should be prioritised. Furthermore, having had a car licence for 8 years doesn't contribute 8 years of value to riding a motorcycle. It is a whole other world and the learning curve is steep, and specific to riding a motorcycle. However, having 1 year of motorcycling experience is immeasurable to developing skills in relation to driving a car, mainly in the roadcraft sense because as a bike rider you anticipate what other drivers are going to do because it's your life on the line. In a car, if someone changes lanes into you, there's likely just panel damage so you don't invest much time in developing defensive/anticipatory driving skills. Monetary costs, while substantial, still come back to having a licence is privilege not a right. Motorcycling is not for everyone; I know clumsy people who struggle to walk on flat pavement with flat shoes, stone cold sober. Costing decent money would likely dissuade those who probably shouldn't be on a bike. Speaking of monetary expense and rules, you think WA has it tough - in Germany it costs between $3322 - $5315 to obtain your car licence, which includes classes and an 8-hour first aid course (https://www.insider.com/countries-co...parison-2018-9). Same website lists Australia at $177. Presumably they have applied the same criteria when determining cost, and to the same point of the licencing process. Stricter, and costlier licencing no doubt produces better drivers and they get to play on the Autobahn at unlimited speeds with a much lower fatality rate than us. If, in Australia as you said, a learner had 20 lessons @ $80, cost is $1600.
                            • You broadened the justification to include the overall licencing saga, not the original question about justifying not being able to ride without a shadow, so while it seems to add weight to your argument, there's a lot of info unrelated to the original question e.g. you talk about converting R-E to international licences, having to pay $160 for a test due to instructors booking out tests etc.
                            Out of all your points, the only ones that relate to reasons in relation to not having a shadow are monetary (needing to pay instructors for time on the road) and that you don't get riding tips from shadows? Sure, I get that practicing the basics like o-turns in car parks (after having learnt the necessary skills) are certainly better use of your time and money than paying an instructor. As a shadow though I would protect the rider by strategically placing myself, watching the movements of cars and making judgements about whether they were dickheads or not, and I would offer tips with the proviso that if anything I say contradicts your instructor, disregard my advice. Based on their skill level, we would ride on the road or in a car park/practice whatever they wanted to practice. The rest of your points were about the system in general. Since I started riding a hundred years ago, it would now be far easier to get shadows due to online groups (I didn't know anyone who rode when I was learning). Most shadows want nothing for their time; I never did but they are looking out for you with an experienced eye. It's said if you have $1 to spend and you spend 90 cents of it focusing on how to ride as it's not yet second nature you only have 10c to devote to watching that around you. The shadow can spent a lot of their focus on you and your surrounds as they have more money to spend on awareness because a bike is fairly second nature to them.

                            Differences in vehicle aside, should we also be able to drive a car on the road without a licence while we're practicing for our test? Is there a limit to the type of vehicle? Can we go drive semis?

                            Out of interest, why did you fail the test? I assume accumulation of points as you said you would have passed under the old system. Maybe it was made stricter because it was deemed not to be discerning enough as to who actually exhibited a) compliance with the road rules, and b) the skills to survive (at least until they turned the first corner out of the licencing centre and were no longer licencing's problem). Honestly, the test is piss easy - it's about being able to a) ride a little bit; and, b) tick all the boxes they want to see (i.e. rotating your head pretty much 180 degrees to make it obvious that you're looking up the side street). It doesn't test real world stuff like WTF is counter-steering and how can it help you perform an evasive measure should Sleepy Susan turn across your path. The person you refer to that failed 3 times - maybe that's an illustration of why the tests are important. In the work environment you have to be instructed, supervised and deemed competent to perform certain tasks that are high risk or technical in nature before being let loose; this isn't any different. Similarly, if you can't pass the bike test, you shouldn't be on the road alone until deemed competent.

                            Edit: re-read original post - failed due to not having sufficient buffer between bus. Surely what was deemed a suitable buffer in the old testing system is the same as current system?
                            Last edited by Kristy; 27-05-2020, 09:57 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mandok View Post
                              state law doesn't allow me to learn unsupervised without a shadow (unlike Vic and NSW).
                              yeh, but no, yeah but that didn't sit quite with me, like that learners could just cruise about having fun by themselves without being oppressed..... thats not how we work here in OZ, so, as i have fuck all else to do other than paint the house i had a quick looksee over at our good mates in NSW.

                              The overview



                              the process



                              license restrictions



                              linky to info https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/geared/yo...your_bike.html

                              So you can ride there unsupervised on an L or provisional P1 on an automatic transmission (scoota), and really who wants to do that anyway. thasts not dissimilar to here?

                              or have i missed the or a point.

                              thats possible

                              its worth the time, effort and cash to get the license, just stick to it you'll be right, doesnt sound like your much off, change instructor if you really have lost confidence. just dont keep repeating the same way or you will always get the same result :-)

                              I cant help it if your perceptions don't match my reality


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