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2019 MotoGP, Moto2 and Moto3 discussion thread (Spoilers)

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  • Originally posted by CT90 View Post

    Freddy Spencer - "Spencer also competed in both the 250cc and 500cc Grand Prix World Championships, winning both titles in the same year. "
    Pre-requisite for inclusion was a win at Leguna (sic) Seca on a two stroke.

    While I would put Freddie right up there on raw talent, his longevity was non existent.
    They hung a sign up in our town "If you live it up, you won't live it down"-Tom Waits

    Comment


    • This is rich from Paolo Simoncelli - considering his son was the highest order of fucking duchebag riders.

      With regards to his rider being taken out a few rounds back...
      Simoncelli believes more harsh punishments are required for on-track stupidity. “Penalties are the only way to make sure they think twice or even three times before they start to overtake at the limit. It’s important to work towards limiting this flash of heroism,” he said.

      Comment


      • Considering Lorenzo's lack of success on the Honda, I doubt that Zarco will be having much fun on it. Both of them favour a smooth precise style, which seems to be a better fit with the Yamaha M1's, perhaps Suzuki

        The KTM's are thought to be a handful like Honda too, trading off mid-corner stability. Zarco had a rough time performing worse than team mates .

        Zarco will be doing his reputation an injury to attempt to adapt to Taka's second rate 2018 Honda
        - Mike

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Rhino View Post
          This is rich from Paolo Simoncelli - considering his son was the highest order of fucking duchebag riders.

          With regards to his rider being taken out a few rounds back...
          Agreed, everyone should be judged on the calibre of their relatives.
          They hung a sign up in our town "If you live it up, you won't live it down"-Tom Waits

          Comment


          • Well Zarco's not getting Nakagami's seat - that's been sorted: https://www.motogp.com/en/news/2019/...mpaign=Traffic

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Kristy View Post
              Well Zarco's not getting Nakagami's seat - that's been sorted: https://www.motogp.com/en/news/2019/...mpaign=Traffic
              He never was, long term?

              Wasn't it only for the duration of the surgery/recovery (which has been confirmed)?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Rhino View Post
                He never was, long term?

                Wasn't it only for the duration of the surgery/recovery (which has been confirmed)?
                Nah, didn't think so either - they want a Japanese rider. Only mentioned it as his contract was yet to be renewed until very recently, which raised a little bit of speculation.

                I will be interested to see how Zarco fares. He's proven he was unable to adapt to the KTM given its requirement for an aggressive riding style. Might he suffer the same fate with the Honda? I was going to say he can't do worse than Lorenzo but he did do pretty poorly on the KTM but I do feel he'll do better than Lorenzo.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Rhino View Post
                  This is rich from Paolo Simoncelli - considering his son was the highest order of fucking duchebag riders.
                  Really? Come on, he was no different to Rossi, Marquez and Lorenzo for his wild riding styles and bashing into people. Simoncelli was one of the most likeable paddock personalities, one of the few who still rode and lived like they did in the 80's and 90's. He rode as hard as he partied.

                  He seemed to be singled out, at a time when the people of world in general turned into a pack whining pack of cunts, and being offended by everything was really taking off. His ban after taking out Pedrosa only came about after penalty point system for cunty riding was introduced to combat the up and coming magnum opus of cunts that is Marquez. And having Lorenzo (a rider who crashed his brains out for his first 2 years in MotoGP) a multiple world champion publicly criticise his riding style conspired against him. What pissed me off was he was penalised for probably one of the best overtakes the sport had ever seen and it was a shame that Pedrosa crashed because he shit himself. But seriously I could probably fart hard enough to break Pedrosa's collar bone from the next room.

                  Overall riding style between Marquez and Simoncelli is near on identical in that they both ride all the way into the crash, Marquez just seems to ride out of it as well. If MotoGP still ran Bridgestone as opposed to the current Michelins, it would be Marquez that would spear across the track and get collected by other riders and killed.

                  At least if Marquez gets killed, there might actually be a competition worth watching again. Rather than 20 demo laps over the course of the year and around the world.

                  And don't even get me started on Fenati, the double foreheaded, down syndrome look-a-like fucker.
                  Trying to think of a wise and sincere signature quote, but the only words that leap to mind are, "TITTY SPRINKLES"

                  Comment


                  • Yeah look.

                    An inability to keep the bike up is what happens when you race on two wheels and seems to be the way fast riders learn to be fast - but outright saying you couldn't give a fuck if you took them out is not the same - that's just being a cunt.

                    Someone said you can teach a fast rider to stop crashing but you can't teach a slow rider to be fast.

                    I was of the opinion that 58 was in that stage of his riding, learning to keep it upright - but when I recently saw him say in 'Fastest' or 'Faster' whichever one it was, something along the lines of "fk em. If I take them out I take them out. I'll do whatever I have to do win".

                    To me, that's a sub-optimal attitude or 'likeable' at all.
                    Put your own body on the line - fine.
                    Don't fuck with everyone else.

                    Maybe he was just playing up to the camera. I dunno.

                    Every single rider does what they have to do to win - but it's the attitude of 'every other cunt be damned' that I disagree with.
                    Race hard. Fuck yes. But not as a pinball with no talent.

                    Lorenzo as far as I can remember was pretty clean? I didn't take any notice of him until he reached MotoGP.
                    Like I said, constantly falling off is part of learning so I don't know how you can hold that against anyone.
                    Stoner was clean - but suffered big time in his LCR days.

                    Rossi was ruthless.

                    Marquez is somewhere in between.
                    I think he wants to ride clean - but he will definitely not back out of a challenge and the red mist engages quickly.

                    Which round was it where he pinballed through everyone a year or two back?
                    The fact that he was red-misted fucked him over and made him look like a complete arse hat.
                    Had he backed off a bit and turned it down to 11 - he would have probably still reached the front, but without incident.

                    In my fanboi opinion - he was overzealous. Simply approached it immaturely and it got away from him.
                    I don't think he thought - these cunts better hold their hats, I'm gonna do whatever I have to do to win including take them out.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Rhino View Post
                      Yeah look.

                      An inability to keep the bike up is what happens when you race on two wheels and seems to be the way fast riders learn to be fast - but outright saying you couldn't give a fuck if you took them out is not the same - that's just being a cunt.

                      Someone said you can teach a fast rider to stop crashing but you can't teach a slow rider to be fast.

                      I was of the opinion that 58 was in that stage of his riding, learning to keep it upright - but when I recently saw him say in 'Fastest' or 'Faster' whichever one it was, something along the lines of "fk em. If I take them out I take them out. I'll do whatever I have to do win".

                      To me, that's a sub-optimal attitude or 'likeable' at all.
                      Put your own body on the line - fine.
                      Don't fuck with everyone else.

                      Maybe he was just playing up to the camera. I dunno.

                      Every single rider does what they have to do to win - but it's the attitude of 'every other cunt be damned' that I disagree with.
                      Race hard. Fuck yes. But not as a pinball with no talent.

                      Lorenzo as far as I can remember was pretty clean? I didn't take any notice of him until he reached MotoGP.
                      Like I said, constantly falling off is part of learning so I don't know how you can hold that against anyone.
                      Stoner was clean - but suffered big time in his LCR days.

                      Rossi was ruthless.

                      Marquez is somewhere in between.
                      I think he wants to ride clean - but he will definitely not back out of a challenge and the red mist engages quickly.

                      Which round was it where he pinballed through everyone a year or two back?
                      The fact that he was red-misted fucked him over and made him look like a complete arse hat.
                      Had he backed off a bit and turned it down to 11 - he would have probably still reached the front, but without incident.

                      In my fanboi opinion - he was overzealous. Simply approached it immaturely and it got away from him.
                      I don't think he thought - these cunts better hold their hats, I'm gonna do whatever I have to do to win including take them out.
                      I think it was fastest that 58 said that. The second movie.

                      The red mist was a huge factor but I think other factors such as his closing speed on the rest of the field, which was something 3 seconds or more per lap IIRC plus it being a drying track with one line made it somewhat inevitable. The Rossi crash was comical though, realistically what happened is Rossi refused to give position to Marquez who was much faster and on the inside and then tried to turn on wet grass.

                      In in regards to Marquez and other younger riders who are happy to play pinball at times part of the blame must be shared between Rossi and race control. Rossi got away with a hell of a lot that no other rider would have and the effect of that to young riders watching at the time is that it’s ok to do because Rossi does it. Off the top of my head there was the Gibernau incident (later carbon copied by Marquez) that Rossi should’ve been penalised for as well as the corkscrew pass. It says to young riders riding like that is fine. I remember a guy on another forum talking about when he was heavily involved in go-karts and a young racer was driving like a dick. They pulled him into race direction and his excuse was ‘that’s how Schumacher does it.’

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kristy View Post
                        I think it is easier to classify GOATs as period-specific. Vale was the GOAT at adaptability and ability to win on any machine. Now, the diversity in bikes isn't there any more so Marquez can never have that claim over Rossi. Marc is certainly the GOAT of the last 10 years - 8 titles in 10 years. Didn't win one year because he risked going blind if he raced, the other because the Honda was a complete dog. Got to 8 titles 3 years earlier than Rossi. My GP knowledge doesn't pre-date Marc's era but will happily say he is quite simply, the rider to beat and has been for the last 10 years. Fabio seems the most likely competitor for the near future. Vin if he can get his shit together (is it him or the bike?). Dovi just isn't consistent enough.
                        I don’t agree. While it’s impossible to compare Ago to the more modern guys because of his ridiculous machinery advantages the differences in tracks and safety equipment etc. There is enough overlap and similarity between both Marquez and Rossi’s careers in the modern era to compare them easily.

                        The fact that Rossi has only been able to win 1 championship and 18 races in the 11 seasons since the grid has gone to spec tyres very telling IMO. Obviously the last couple shouldn’t count against him however. Stoner won 1 championship and 22 races in only 4 seasons, Lorenzo has won 47 races and 3 titles in the same time and Marquez has won 6 titles and 53 races with 4 less seasons.

                        The argument that Rossi has won on titles 500s, 990s and 800s as well as some races in the 1000s is irrelevant when you take into account he is the only great rider that has had the right timing to do so. Talent on two wheels is talent on two wheels, when the rules changed during the various eras it has almost always been the same riders at the point end. The exception being when a factory 02 RCV was given to a Japanese rider who was able to win and finish in the top 3 or 4 of the championship but was never able to win or podium in any season before or since.

                        Rossi was unable to show the kind of domination Doohan was able to with similar advantages, Marquez is showing something similar to Doohan without them.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by p4p1 View Post


                          Rossi was unable to show the kind of domination Doohan was able to with similar advantages,
                          Eh? 2000 - 2005 across 3 different varieties of machinery (2 stroke, v5, i4) and 2 different manufacturers. 2000 he was a rookie on a satellite NSR500... 5 championships in a row.

                          2002 he had one finish not first or second. Like Marquez this year. Ditto for 2005. 2003? Podium every single race.

                          Unlike Mick, he won both 125 and 250 previously.

                          Table below of race results and championship finish, 2000-2005
                          RSA
                          Ret
                          MAL
                          Ret
                          JPN
                          11
                          SPA
                          3
                          FRA
                          3
                          ITA
                          12
                          CAT
                          3
                          NED
                          6
                          GBR
                          1
                          GER
                          2
                          CZE
                          2
                          POR
                          3
                          VAL
                          Ret
                          RIO
                          1
                          PAC
                          2
                          AUS
                          3
                          2nd 209
                          JPN
                          1
                          RSA
                          1
                          SPA
                          1
                          FRA
                          3
                          ITA
                          Ret
                          CAT
                          1
                          NED
                          2
                          GBR
                          1
                          GER
                          7
                          CZE
                          1
                          POR
                          1
                          VAL
                          11
                          PAC
                          1
                          AUS
                          1
                          MAL
                          1
                          RIO
                          1
                          1st 325
                          JPN
                          1
                          RSA
                          2
                          SPA
                          1
                          FRA
                          1
                          ITA
                          1
                          CAT
                          1
                          NED
                          1
                          GBR
                          1
                          GER
                          1
                          CZE
                          Ret
                          POR
                          1
                          RIO
                          1
                          PAC
                          2
                          MAL
                          2
                          AUS
                          1
                          VAL
                          2
                          1st 355
                          JPN
                          1
                          RSA
                          2
                          SPA
                          1
                          FRA
                          2
                          ITA
                          1
                          CAT
                          2
                          NED
                          3
                          GBR
                          3
                          GER
                          2
                          CZE
                          1
                          POR
                          1
                          RIO
                          1
                          PAC
                          2
                          MAL
                          1
                          AUS
                          1
                          VAL
                          1
                          1st 357
                          RSA
                          1
                          SPA
                          4
                          FRA
                          4
                          ITA
                          1
                          CAT
                          1
                          NED
                          1
                          RIO
                          Ret
                          GER
                          4
                          GBR
                          1
                          CZE
                          2
                          POR
                          1
                          JPN
                          2
                          QAT
                          Ret
                          MAL
                          1
                          AUS
                          1
                          VAL
                          1
                          1st 304
                          SPA
                          1
                          POR
                          2
                          CHN
                          1
                          FRA
                          1
                          ITA
                          1
                          CAT
                          1
                          NED
                          1
                          USA
                          3
                          GBR
                          1
                          GER
                          1
                          CZE
                          1
                          JPN
                          Ret
                          MAL
                          2
                          QAT
                          1
                          AUS
                          1
                          TUR
                          2
                          VAL
                          3
                          1st 367
                          Last edited by thro; 18-10-2019, 01:20 PM.
                          “Crashing is shit for you, shit for the bike, shit for the mechanics and shit for the set-up,” Checa told me a while back. “It’s a signal that you are heading in the wrong direction. You want to win but crashing is the opposite. It’s like being in France when you want to go to England and when you crash you go to Spain. That way you’ll never get to England!” -- Carlos Checa

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by thro View Post

                            Eh? 2000 - 2005 across 3 different varieties of machinery (2 stroke, v5, i4) and 2 different manufacturers. 2000 he was a rookie on a satellite NSR500... 5 championships in a row.

                            2002 he had one finish not first or second. Like Marquez this year. Ditto for 2005. 2003? Podium every single race.

                            Unlike Mick, he won both 125 and 250 previously.

                            Table below of race results and championship finish, 2000-2005
                            RSA
                            Ret
                            MAL
                            Ret
                            JPN
                            11
                            SPA
                            3
                            FRA
                            3
                            ITA
                            12
                            CAT
                            3
                            NED
                            6
                            GBR
                            1
                            GER
                            2
                            CZE
                            2
                            POR
                            3
                            VAL
                            Ret
                            RIO
                            1
                            PAC
                            2
                            AUS
                            3
                            2nd 209
                            JPN
                            1
                            RSA
                            1
                            SPA
                            1
                            FRA
                            3
                            ITA
                            Ret
                            CAT
                            1
                            NED
                            2
                            GBR
                            1
                            GER
                            7
                            CZE
                            1
                            POR
                            1
                            VAL
                            11
                            PAC
                            1
                            AUS
                            1
                            MAL
                            1
                            RIO
                            1
                            1st 325
                            JPN
                            1
                            RSA
                            2
                            SPA
                            1
                            FRA
                            1
                            ITA
                            1
                            CAT
                            1
                            NED
                            1
                            GBR
                            1
                            GER
                            1
                            CZE
                            Ret
                            POR
                            1
                            RIO
                            1
                            PAC
                            2
                            MAL
                            2
                            AUS
                            1
                            VAL
                            2
                            1st 355
                            JPN
                            1
                            RSA
                            2
                            SPA
                            1
                            FRA
                            2
                            ITA
                            1
                            CAT
                            2
                            NED
                            3
                            GBR
                            3
                            GER
                            2
                            CZE
                            1
                            POR
                            1
                            RIO
                            1
                            PAC
                            2
                            MAL
                            1
                            AUS
                            1
                            VAL
                            1
                            1st 357
                            RSA
                            1
                            SPA
                            4
                            FRA
                            4
                            ITA
                            1
                            CAT
                            1
                            NED
                            1
                            RIO
                            Ret
                            GER
                            4
                            GBR
                            1
                            CZE
                            2
                            POR
                            1
                            JPN
                            2
                            QAT
                            Ret
                            MAL
                            1
                            AUS
                            1
                            VAL
                            1
                            1st 304
                            SPA
                            1
                            POR
                            2
                            CHN
                            1
                            FRA
                            1
                            ITA
                            1
                            CAT
                            1
                            NED
                            1
                            USA
                            3
                            GBR
                            1
                            GER
                            1
                            CZE
                            1
                            JPN
                            Ret
                            MAL
                            2
                            QAT
                            1
                            AUS
                            1
                            TUR
                            2
                            VAL
                            3
                            1st 367
                            2000 - satellite bike only in name. He had full Honda backing and Doohans old crew and most importantly Burgess and Michelin’s support after the halfway mark of the season. Without Burgess it’s possible Michelin doesn’t go to Rossi in 2000 for ‘tyre development.’
                            2002 when he was riding the factory RCV that was head and shoulders above anything else on the grid and his teammate was a Japanese nobody who still had excellent consistency managed to win, score podiums and finish third in the championship. In 2002 Rossi should have won every single race, he had the best bike and the support of the tyre manufacturer. Do you believe that Doohan, Marquez, Lorenzo or Stoner wouldn’t have won every race if they were in Rossi’s position? Of course they would have at the very least they would’ve taken more than 11 wins.
                            03 - Doohan like sure but once again on a bike that was on a factory Honda with tyres design specifically for him (no different than Doohan) but his closest rivals were on satellite versions without as much support on a brand new motorcycle under a new formula.
                            04 - his second most impressive title after 09. When he left Honda he took Michelin with him which is a huge advantage to any rider. Farasawa though, the is a genius what he did for the redesign of that bike was remarkable as was Rossi’s riding that year admittedly. But without Farasawa Rossi’s time at Yamaha wouldn’t have been overly happy. People act like Yamaha was KTM or Aprilia currently are before Rossi went there, they were still the second most successful team in recent history. Would you think it would be that impressive if Marquez switched to Yamaha next year and won? Of course you wouldn’t nor would many other people. Yamahas decade without a title during that time is down to Rainey’s horrible accident, absolute domination by Doohan (which probably also caused the most talented to demand a Honda as well) and Rossi’s own domination in 01-03. They still won constructors titles during that time and finished runner up most of the time.
                            05 - excellent year for Rossi.

                            Doohan like dominance, From 94-98 Doohan finished 6 races below 2nd place and only 4 off the podium. Doohan won 12 out of 15 races an 80% win ratio that will likely never be bettered, Rossi’s best season saw him manage ‘only’ 69%. Marquez bettered than in his second year as a 21 year old on control tyres. Lorenzo and Stoner have come close to Rossi’s 69% win ratio on control tyres. Yes Rossi went just over a full season not finishing a race below 2nd much like Marquez is doing right now. Doohan did 2 full seasons, Marquez has done the same as Rossi on control tyres with control electronics without having the best bike on the grid.

                            Im not sure what 125 and 250 have to do with anything if Doohan was Italian and had the luxury of being in Rossi’s position do you believe Doohan wouldn’t have won titles in those classes? They’re almost not real world championships in a sense because the guys in the smaller class in modern times are not the best riders in the world. Biaggi is a 4x 250 world champion but honestly who the fuck cares? He’s best known for being a runner up to Rossi.

                            Only an Horrific injury and a shithouse doctor stopped Doohan from winning more than 5 titles and in all likelihood would of won more than 5 on the trot. He had the ‘92 title practically sewn up after 7 rounds on the back of 5 wins and 2 second places before his crash. If not for the doctor Doohan gets back on the bike earlier, is more competitive and wins the 92 title. In 1993 he is either fully or almost fully fit, doesn’t have to almost relearn to ride a bike and either continues like he was riding in 92 and would in 94 and dominates the title chase or benefits off of Rainey’s injuries and wins. If not for the original injury maybe Doohan goes on in 99 like he did in 98. You can’t give Doohan titles that he didn’t win but it’s not unfair to say that Doohan was a better rider than Rossi based on what he achieved, the unmatched domination and the fact he did it while not being 100%. Rossi may have won 2 more titles but the ‘08 title was on the back of Dorna forcing Bridgestone to supply Rossi despite their original refusal to do so and Rossi current and valid contract with Michelin, which then had the unintended or intended consequence of Bridgestone no longer supplying/making Stoner and Ducati’s favoured tyre. 09 was clearly his most impressive title because it was on control tyres despite it being his least dominant title. However given his relatively poor record on control tyres one has to wonder if not for an extra year of data and development input with Bridgestone if he would’ve taken that title.

                            Rossi has been fortunate with his timing and lucky with some other things out of his control (such as mechanical failure causing serious injuries ala Lorenzo at Ducati, Stoner at Suzuki probably a heap of others as well) IMO (and he’s not the only one) and that’s not a knock on him at all but when Rossi reached the 500s they weren’t the machines that wanted to kill you like they did in the 80s/early 90s. If Doohan doesn’t crash in 99 (or maybe 92) Rossi likely doesn’t get to walk straight into a factory backed Honda team, with Doohans crew chief and team along with the Michelin’s favourability. If he was slightly older he would’ve had to deal with a prime Doohan, Rainey, Schwantz, Lawson etc if he’s slightly younger he grows up racing Stoner, Pedrosa and Lorenzo 2 of whom he has losing records against despite favour from the series. He like many others since him (perhaps none more than Marquez) have benefitted from the improved safety of tracks and riding gear that have helped a heap of guys add longevity to their careers.

                            Not sure of the relevance of the 3 different types of machinery. It gets chucked about like he’s the only one who had to adapt from 500s to 990cc 4 strokes. 2001 runner up Max Biaggi, 2002 runner up Max Biaggi, 2003 runner up Max Biaggi - does Biaggi get extra credit in 03 for going to a v5 for an i4? Of course not that notion is ridiculous. If the finishing order is mostly the same when the change happened, why is the change such a big deal or used as proof of greatness? Is Biaggi better than Lorenzo, Stoner or Marquez because he was runner up on 500s and 4 strokes? When Rossi ‘adapted’ from 500s to 4 strokes he had the advantage of being on the RCV and he had Michelin tyres based on his input and the rest of the field had to make the same adaption. He wasn’t the only one switching classes so to speak. When Rossi went from 990s to 800s he was in a similar position but then some Aussie on a bike that hated turning ‘adapted’ faster and totally dominated the season. When he had to adapt his riding style to that Ducati that hated turning, that that Aussie guy won 3 of the last 6 races on he failed so spectacularly that Ducati threw out everything they knew and had previously worked for them and went in a development direction on his demand that would see them not win a race until 2016. When he had to adapt from the POS Ducati some rookie coming from a 600cc bike adapted faster and won the title that year. When he had to adapt from Bridgestones back to Michelin’s which were by his own words just like he used to ride and do away with custom electronics that same Spaniard adapted much faster and won another championship. Rossi is adaptable but he was never and has never been the best at adapting, both Stoner and Marquez were more adaptable. Rossi has never really show he is able to win on anything, he doesn’t have the same kind of talent that both Stoner, Hailwood and Marquez have shown consistently ride around problems and machine deficiencies to win on something nobody else is capable of winning and/or showing any kind of consistency. Rossi never won on the Ducati like Stoner did and he never won with obvious disadvantages in machinery like Marquez did in 16, or with what was probably the 3rd best bike like Marquez did in 17 or on a bike that no one can seem to ride competitively like Marquez has done this year. He can’t dominate when he doesn’t have tailored tyres as Marquez, Stoner and Lorenzo have done on control tyres.

                            Rossi is a GREAT rider but he isn’t greater than Marquez anymore. His h2h record against Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez (and Marquez’s h2h record vs Lorenzo) shows he’s not a better rider than those three. It’s arguable he was ever a better rider than Doohan. Doohan to me despite his success may have underachieved because of things outside of his control. Of course some will point to Rossi’s age as a reason for his record against Marquez but there’s little to no drop off in reflexes from 20-35. Sometimes point to other sports as proof that age is an issue that has previously hindered Rossi. What slows most athletes down when they’re on the wrong side of 30 is the wear and tear on their bodies that takes its toll. All the small niggling injuries add up as well as the large ones comparing motorsports to sports that solely rely on your body is disingenuous. Somebody on this forum used the argument of an ageing Pavlich compared to a prime Fyfe as proof of slowing down with age. Page body let him down, not his mind which even know is likely as sharp as ever. Brain trauma can slow down reaction speeds in athletes which IMO is why some boxers etc look like they’ve aged overnight and some athletes in physical contact sport can appear to have slowed reflexes as they age. But for most people not getting hit in the head every weekend and concussed every year or so the decline is very slow and gradual.

                            Comment


                            • Fabio should wrap up the rookie of the year this weekend. Mid needs to score 11 more points than Fabio to keep the race going until next weekend. Seems unlikely he will though.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by p4p1 View Post
                                2000 - satellite bike only in name. He had full Honda backing and Doohans old crew and most importantly Burgess and Michelin’s support after the halfway mark of the season. Without Burgess it’s possible Michelin doesn’t go to Rossi in 2000 for ‘tyre development.’
                                2002 when he was riding the factory RCV that was head and shoulders above anything else on the grid and his teammate was a Japanese nobody who still had excellent consistency managed to win, score podiums and finish third in the championship. In 2002 Rossi should have won every single race, he had the best bike and the support of the tyre manufacturer. Do you believe that Doohan, Marquez, Lorenzo or Stoner wouldn’t have won every race if they were in Rossi’s position? Of course they would have at the very least they would’ve taken more than 11 wins.
                                03 - Doohan like sure but once again on a bike that was on a factory Honda with tyres design specifically for him (no different than Doohan) but his closest rivals were on satellite versions without as much support on a brand new motorcycle under a new formula.
                                04 - his second most impressive title after 09. When he left Honda he took Michelin with him which is a huge advantage to any rider. Farasawa though, the is a genius what he did for the redesign of that bike was remarkable as was Rossi’s riding that year admittedly. But without Farasawa Rossi’s time at Yamaha wouldn’t have been overly happy. People act like Yamaha was KTM or Aprilia currently are before Rossi went there, they were still the second most successful team in recent history. Would you think it would be that impressive if Marquez switched to Yamaha next year and won? Of course you wouldn’t nor would many other people. Yamahas decade without a title during that time is down to Rainey’s horrible accident, absolute domination by Doohan (which probably also caused the most talented to demand a Honda as well) and Rossi’s own domination in 01-03. They still won constructors titles during that time and finished runner up most of the time.
                                05 - excellent year for Rossi.

                                Doohan like dominance, From 94-98 Doohan finished 6 races below 2nd place and only 4 off the podium. Doohan won 12 out of 15 races an 80% win ratio that will likely never be bettered, Rossi’s best season saw him manage ‘only’ 69%. Marquez bettered than in his second year as a 21 year old on control tyres. Lorenzo and Stoner have come close to Rossi’s 69% win ratio on control tyres. Yes Rossi went just over a full season not finishing a race below 2nd much like Marquez is doing right now. Doohan did 2 full seasons, Marquez has done the same as Rossi on control tyres with control electronics without having the best bike on the grid.

                                Im not sure what 125 and 250 have to do with anything if Doohan was Italian and had the luxury of being in Rossi’s position do you believe Doohan wouldn’t have won titles in those classes? They’re almost not real world championships in a sense because the guys in the smaller class in modern times are not the best riders in the world. Biaggi is a 4x 250 world champion but honestly who the fuck cares? He’s best known for being a runner up to Rossi.

                                Only an Horrific injury and a shithouse doctor stopped Doohan from winning more than 5 titles and in all likelihood would of won more than 5 on the trot. He had the ‘92 title practically sewn up after 7 rounds on the back of 5 wins and 2 second places before his crash. If not for the doctor Doohan gets back on the bike earlier, is more competitive and wins the 92 title. In 1993 he is either fully or almost fully fit, doesn’t have to almost relearn to ride a bike and either continues like he was riding in 92 and would in 94 and dominates the title chase or benefits off of Rainey’s injuries and wins. If not for the original injury maybe Doohan goes on in 99 like he did in 98. You can’t give Doohan titles that he didn’t win but it’s not unfair to say that Doohan was a better rider than Rossi based on what he achieved, the unmatched domination and the fact he did it while not being 100%. Rossi may have won 2 more titles but the ‘08 title was on the back of Dorna forcing Bridgestone to supply Rossi despite their original refusal to do so and Rossi current and valid contract with Michelin, which then had the unintended or intended consequence of Bridgestone no longer supplying/making Stoner and Ducati’s favoured tyre. 09 was clearly his most impressive title because it was on control tyres despite it being his least dominant title. However given his relatively poor record on control tyres one has to wonder if not for an extra year of data and development input with Bridgestone if he would’ve taken that title.

                                Rossi has been fortunate with his timing and lucky with some other things out of his control (such as mechanical failure causing serious injuries ala Lorenzo at Ducati, Stoner at Suzuki probably a heap of others as well) IMO (and he’s not the only one) and that’s not a knock on him at all but when Rossi reached the 500s they weren’t the machines that wanted to kill you like they did in the 80s/early 90s. If Doohan doesn’t crash in 99 (or maybe 92) Rossi likely doesn’t get to walk straight into a factory backed Honda team, with Doohans crew chief and team along with the Michelin’s favourability. If he was slightly older he would’ve had to deal with a prime Doohan, Rainey, Schwantz, Lawson etc if he’s slightly younger he grows up racing Stoner, Pedrosa and Lorenzo 2 of whom he has losing records against despite favour from the series. He like many others since him (perhaps none more than Marquez) have benefitted from the improved safety of tracks and riding gear that have helped a heap of guys add longevity to their careers.

                                Not sure of the relevance of the 3 different types of machinery. It gets chucked about like he’s the only one who had to adapt from 500s to 990cc 4 strokes. 2001 runner up Max Biaggi, 2002 runner up Max Biaggi, 2003 runner up Max Biaggi - does Biaggi get extra credit in 03 for going to a v5 for an i4? Of course not that notion is ridiculous. If the finishing order is mostly the same when the change happened, why is the change such a big deal or used as proof of greatness? Is Biaggi better than Lorenzo, Stoner or Marquez because he was runner up on 500s and 4 strokes? When Rossi ‘adapted’ from 500s to 4 strokes he had the advantage of being on the RCV and he had Michelin tyres based on his input and the rest of the field had to make the same adaption. He wasn’t the only one switching classes so to speak. When Rossi went from 990s to 800s he was in a similar position but then some Aussie on a bike that hated turning ‘adapted’ faster and totally dominated the season. When he had to adapt his riding style to that Ducati that hated turning, that that Aussie guy won 3 of the last 6 races on he failed so spectacularly that Ducati threw out everything they knew and had previously worked for them and went in a development direction on his demand that would see them not win a race until 2016. When he had to adapt from the POS Ducati some rookie coming from a 600cc bike adapted faster and won the title that year. When he had to adapt from Bridgestones back to Michelin’s which were by his own words just like he used to ride and do away with custom electronics that same Spaniard adapted much faster and won another championship. Rossi is adaptable but he was never and has never been the best at adapting, both Stoner and Marquez were more adaptable. Rossi has never really show he is able to win on anything, he doesn’t have the same kind of talent that both Stoner, Hailwood and Marquez have shown consistently ride around problems and machine deficiencies to win on something nobody else is capable of winning and/or showing any kind of consistency. Rossi never won on the Ducati like Stoner did and he never won with obvious disadvantages in machinery like Marquez did in 16, or with what was probably the 3rd best bike like Marquez did in 17 or on a bike that no one can seem to ride competitively like Marquez has done this year. He can’t dominate when he doesn’t have tailored tyres as Marquez, Stoner and Lorenzo have done on control tyres.

                                Rossi is a GREAT rider but he isn’t greater than Marquez anymore. His h2h record against Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez (and Marquez’s h2h record vs Lorenzo) shows he’s not a better rider than those three. It’s arguable he was ever a better rider than Doohan. Doohan to me despite his success may have underachieved because of things outside of his control. Of course some will point to Rossi’s age as a reason for his record against Marquez but there’s little to no drop off in reflexes from 20-35. Sometimes point to other sports as proof that age is an issue that has previously hindered Rossi. What slows most athletes down when they’re on the wrong side of 30 is the wear and tear on their bodies that takes its toll. All the small niggling injuries add up as well as the large ones comparing motorsports to sports that solely rely on your body is disingenuous. Somebody on this forum used the argument of an ageing Pavlich compared to a prime Fyfe as proof of slowing down with age. Page body let him down, not his mind which even know is likely as sharp as ever. Brain trauma can slow down reaction speeds in athletes which IMO is why some boxers etc look like they’ve aged overnight and some athletes in physical contact sport can appear to have slowed reflexes as they age. But for most people not getting hit in the head every weekend and concussed every year or so the decline is very slow and gradual.
                                Good grief!

                                So what I take from that novel is that you consider that hard work and strategy should not count towards someone being considered being the greatest of all time and that natural talent should count more?

                                Just say you hate him and be done with it.
                                They hung a sign up in our town "If you live it up, you won't live it down"-Tom Waits

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