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  • Which group to ride in

    Hi

    Reading posts and talking to people it seems like ther is a lot of consternation about which group people should book into for a track day regardless of which provider you go with. There are many threads here that talk about this group or that, and seeing first hand yesterday a yellow group 4 at champions with only 6 riders on track but packed group 3 and 2 maybe there needs to be grading of riders?

    I was chatting to one of the guys in yellow on an R1 and he seemed keen enough to have people join the group as long as they could hold a line and not do anything rash. Maybe people need to be pushed up by coaches at ridedays/trakdays, maybe the real fix is WA's version of broadford but untill we get there how do "we" the wa track riding public make the most of what seems to be limited availability?

    On a personal note what the important bit? overall lap time or corner speed, I see rgv250's in group 3 that must be decimated down the straights but potentially just as quick if not quicker in the corners?

    Cheers

    Matt

  • #2
    Matt

    The best advice I can give is get to a day, start in the appropriate group (1 if you haven't been before) and then get some advice from the coaches ,who can assess you, and let you know if they think you are ready to move up if you are undecided. I'm not sure if I am telling you to suck eggs but if you are confident that you can hold a line and reasonably quick then it isn't a big problem. On the other hand this may not be the right advice for a Champions day.
    From what I hear < 70 or 68 perhaps then group 4 if you can hold a line and not get in the way of the faster bikes. Consistency would be the key.

    Have you done many track days and what time are you doing?

    I am stuck at best on about 69 secs and don't think I am ready for G4, others feel different and move up.

    Comment


    • #3
      Which group to ride in

      Well this is a controversial topic.
      I recognise that the slower groups are being packed out to capacity in minutes of being released.

      However, I've ridden in G4 with riders who can do a 68 and stay out of the way and that's fine. It's only a problem when you get to them on a corner.
      The difference in corner speed is staggering. So a 250 GP bike doing 68s would be much more suited to G4 than a 1000cc superbike.

      What people must realise is that although a track day is not a race day, G4 is usually full of current or ex road racers.
      What road racers consider a safe move may scare the shit out of a guy on a 1000cc doing 68s, and cause him to bin his pride and joy.
      No one wants to see that. G4s can usually pass under brakes, inside or around the outside of corners and block pass you mid corner if they think they're faster and can gap you. You've got to be prepared to get chopped up and not throw a hissy fit. If you can handle it come play.

      Usually if you are slower and have good lines and know your bike faster guys will pass you no dramas.

      Example. I currently run mid /late 61s (not terribly fast for a 600), but once qualified in the A,B fast C group. Was putting in my fast lap coming out of the left hander going into skyline and three SBKs doing 57s passed me going into skyline (had to lift my knee to let them through), drifting out to the edge of the track sidewards. Made me giggle and pushed me harder and into the late 60s. Watched them exiting the basin spinning up all the way over the hill, and that didn't put me off, made me realise I was bitching out. If you can handle it, come play.

      That's a race, were talking track days.... But it can happen. Fast riders will still be fast at a trackday.

      Another example and a particular pet peeve of mine is 1000 cc riders lapping 1s to 1.5s slower than you. This means their braking markers are the same as yours, corner speed is a lot less and straight line speed a lot more. A very frustrating experience, and eventually I am likely to find a spot slide it under and make him pick his bike up to let me through. Again not a problem if you have some experience but it can happen. If you can handle it ....

      I'm not saying don't come to G4, that would be selfish. I personally want to see riders advance and learn more. We are all on our own learning paths. Just trying to get across that a certain level of confidence and ability is required. I can't quantify this in lap time but I would hazard a guess based on corner speed and say 68s consistently for me to enter G4.

      Track riding is dangerous, you can damage or destroy your bike, injure yourself or worse. Managing and minimising this risk is up to all of us. The faster you go the more likely you are going to do some serious damage, so we must be smart and objective about this.

      These are just my views and do not represent the views of my team, or any companies I may associate myself with, now or in the future.
      Last edited by KiwiBiker; 09-11-2013, 05:39 AM.
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      Comment


      • #4
        I'm not worried for myself so much, i know im slow enough where i am, having said that with no lap timers meant to be used how would i know Ive just ordered a xt compatible laptimer so hopefully next track day i'll be able to post about my incredbly fast/slow pace i did ask the coach when i felt quick enough in grp1 and got an immediate yes go up, what im wondering is do too many hang back in grp 2/3 where they could be capable to ride in a higher group but for whatever reason arent keen to move up, it might sound like i want more space in my prefered group but thats not really where i'm coming from, more a case of the greater good

        Comment


        • #5
          Trakdayz And MCRC coaches will advise to move up when they see you are ready, they are the ones coaching you so they know where you are at.


          Or this thread about that diabolical ticket selling business?
          My dream is to get a 200hp Hyabusa, do 300kph down the straight Boooooooooooorrrrrrtttttt then park it in the corners will hectic skillz.
          Doesnt matter which group when you are a Champion. :p

          Comment


          • #6
            I personally think people should stay in whatever group they are in until they're told to move up. This 'self grading' shouldn't be allowed IMHO.

            Comment


            • #7
              Go watch a Trakdayz or Ridedays...

              Champions are a little "different"...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Rich... View Post
                Go watch a Trakdayz or Ridedays...

                Champions are a little "different"...
                Maybe chamions are doing something right by scaring the muppets from entering gp4, ive ridden many times with all three providers, not had an issue in gp4 with champions, but with trakdayz, its seems there is a huge increase of people that cant get a spot in gp2 or 3, decide screw it, ill book gp4, then you end up with a dozen numpties with shit lines wobbling around like epileptic orangutans on scooters, making the day far less enjoyble than it should be for everyone.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Anything better than a 70sec lap and you can hold good lines = group 4 IMO. You will get quicker very soon with the faster riders out there too!

                  Remember its always up to the faster riders to get around you - just hold your lines and be predictable and go as fast as you are comfortable with. Don't get out of the way or go off line and they will get past easily enough and in the safest way possible.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sean'o View Post
                    Maybe chamions are doing something right by scaring the muppets from entering gp4, ive ridden many times with all three providers, not had an issue in gp4 with champions, but with trakdayz, its seems there is a huge increase of people that cant get a spot in gp2 or 3, decide screw it, ill book gp4, then you end up with a dozen numpties with shit lines wobbling around like epileptic orangutans on scooters, making the day far less enjoyble than it should be for everyone.
                    It was in response to the "yellow group 4 at champions with only 6 riders on track but packed group 3 and 2 maybe there needs to be grading of riders"

                    I believe both the other providers have a set number of riders per group...

                    From the above observation it would seem Champions don't...

                    Never done a Champions day so am going on the OP observation...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nope champions for some reason can allow nearly 40 riders on the track at once.... there is a limit, but it is well beyond the 24riders that the other two set. Funnily enough the track is only rated for 29 racers on race day...

                      Also as the others have coaches and are seen as a training aspect in MWA's eyes for insurance purposes they are only allowed a certain number of students per coach. Champions has its insurances worked out with MA and have a different set of rules to adhere to apparently.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Looking at lap record times which doesn't nesecarily relate to the average track day rider i know, but laptimes would seem to unfairly discriminate, ie superstock 600 lap record is 58.96 so setting a 70 sec limit gives someone a full 11 secs extra, on a 250cc prody the record is 63.29 leaving only a margin of less than 7 secs to the 70 sec limit although by nesecity the person on an rgv doing 71 sec laps is going a shedload quicker thru the corners than someone on an r6, include litre bikes in the mix and it adds another couple of secs to the buffer between lap record and 70 sec laps.

                        And yet with all that i can see where #sean'o is coming from, at any level its not fun coming up on someone mid corner who decides thats the perfect time to do something odd

                        I'm no expert by any means but with champions allowing passing on the outside in grp 2 it certainly gets you closer to others that you probablly wouldn't be in ridedays or trakdayz with there only passing on the straights rules at the same level

                        How do we determine someone has "good lines", should it be race license holders only in grp 4 a bit like ridedays seem to include a tuning group on there days

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by powellm976 View Post
                          I'm no expert by any means but with champions allowing passing on the outside in grp 2 it certainly gets you closer to others that you probablly wouldn't be in ridedays or trakdayz with there only passing on the straights rules at the same level
                          Not true. I've done MCRC Ridedays & Level 1 trackday and have been allowed to overtake both on the inside and outside, respectively.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Manyak View Post
                            Not true. I've done MCRC Ridedays & Level 1 trackday and have been allowed to overtake both on the inside and outside, respectively.
                            The course content for both of the groups you have mentioned does not include overtaking on the inside of corners. If what you say is correct and someone from eithe the MCRCWA or Trakdayz had given you permission to do so then that person was acting on their own and was not following the curriculum set out by the operators.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by robwas View Post
                              The course content for both of the groups you have mentioned does not include overtaking on the inside of corners. If what you say is correct and someone from eithe the MCRCWA or Trakdayz had given you permission to do so then that person was acting on their own and was not following the curriculum set out by the operators.
                              We thought it was a bit odd and I even questioned it during the briefing - 'are you sure you mean inside the corner & not outside?'.. But he was sure, overtaking on the inside ONLY!

                              It was a pretty good group though and I don't think anyone ended up doing it due to not being anywhere near confident enough..

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