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MA Track Guidelines Document ... Run Off Calculations

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  • MA Track Guidelines Document ... Run Off Calculations

    I'm preparing run off calculation diagrams in accordance with the graphs and formulae on pages 41 & 42 of the MA document. I'd recommend any interested rider print the first 42 pages (road racing section) for reference.

    MA Track Guidelines

    As some of you know I'm a Civil Engineer with the mathematical training to do this. In fact the work is simple. My understanding is MA employed a Mathematician or Physicist to develop the formulae for a layman like me to use.

    The first thing I discovered is the Y-Axis on the Maximum Speed in Curves Graph on page 41 is incorrect. I've advised MA and they have yet to respond.

    To audit my work I have co-opted a double degree Civil Engineer/Bachelor Surveying, Mechanical Engineer and a Geophysicist. Between the four of us we have the maths and physics skills.

    I've completed the turn 7 run off diagram as required in clause 5.3.1 page 27. It's not looking good but I won't say anymore until it's been checked.

    I need some maximum speed data from a 1000cc 57 second rider:

    I require the maximum velocities prior to turns 1, 3, 6 & 7. I've sent a PM to Anthony McFadden with my email and number. If someone would advise him to call or email those numbers to me it would be appreciated.

    Any other 57 second rider is welcome to supply me the data. For my turn 7 calculation I've used Vmax as 265km/hr. I understand that's the approximate velocity before deceleration.

    If possible, post the speeds in this thread for convenience.

    For interest I checked the turn 7 corner trajectory starting speed with my own data from last month for this 61 year old doing a 62.55 second lap on the 2010 GSXR750. The graph gave me 117km/hr and my data showed 120km/hr.

    Once this work is completed and checked by my scientific peers I'll publish the diagrams in this thread.

    Remember this is a democracy with free speech. Any of you can supply me actual data so don't be bluffed if someone says you're not allowed to give me information. If you want it kept confidential because you have a Rossi/Lorenzo rivalry then I'll do that. The diagrams will show the calculated distances not the Vmax's collected. Your secrets will be safe.
    Last edited by Scott52; 14-06-2016, 02:52 PM.
    I'll be riding for you #52, my dear son, Cameron Taylor Elliott 1985-2009
    2008 CBR600RR and 2010 GSXR750 Track Bikes, KTM530EXC Enduro bike wrist breaker

  • #2
    That 120km/hr for T7 seems really high.

    All from memory - hopefully someone can back up these numbers.
    T1 - 75-80km/hr
    T2 - 120-130
    T3 - 165
    T4 - 115
    T5 - (cant remember)
    T6 - 160
    T7 - 95

    Its been a while since I was on a superbike now, I was a 60sec rider My Vmax was 265 .The data was off a q-star unit so should be very accurate compared to a speedo which would be out because a rider would be on the side of the tyre, giving a much higher speedo reading than reality. Funnily enough I managed to just beat some of those mid corner speeds my motard, given the lighter weight and stickier tyres its not that suprising though.

    FWIW the 125's would probably have the highest mid corner speeds, should probably chase that data if you can.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by out_in_front View Post
      That 120km/hr for T7 seems really high.

      All from memory - hopefully someone can back up these numbers.
      T1 - 75-80km/hr
      T2 - 120-130
      T3 - 165
      T4 - 115
      T5 - (cant remember)
      T6 - 160
      T7 - 95

      Its been a while since I was on a superbike now, I was a 60sec rider My Vmax was 265 .The data was off a q-star unit so should be very accurate compared to a speedo which would be out because a rider would be on the side of the tyre, giving a much higher speedo reading than reality. Funnily enough I managed to just beat some of those mid corner speeds my motard, given the lighter weight and stickier tyres its not that suprising though.

      FWIW the 125's would probably have the highest mid corner speeds, should probably chase that data if you can.
      The corner speed from the graph to use in the formula is at the BEGINNING of the corner trajectory ... not the mid corner speed. It's the speed you're doing when you start to turn the bike. My own data and the graph matched reasonably well.

      I'm after the maximum speeds before the corners I mentioned in the OP.
      Last edited by Scott52; 14-06-2016, 12:40 PM.
      I'll be riding for you #52, my dear son, Cameron Taylor Elliott 1985-2009
      2008 CBR600RR and 2010 GSXR750 Track Bikes, KTM530EXC Enduro bike wrist breaker

      Comment


      • #4
        Ok that makes sense, I woudln't have that data off the top of my head

        Comment


        • #5
          I'll look at the data I have off my laptop tonight of a couple of high 56/flat 57 sec laps..
          Sponsored by:

          Billetta Imports, Motorcycle Panel & Paint, Pirelli, YAMALUBE

          Comment


          • #6
            Following, very interested in the science side of all this, keep up the good work, fingers crossed you achieve an outcome successful for all.

            Comment


            • #7
              This diagram is the best estimate of the run off distances required based on pages 41 & 42 of the MA Track Guidelines document. It was a collaborative effort by three Engineers which included me. We used the formula and Maximum Speed in Curves graph. One thing that does bother me is the run off formula is identical to that in the old CAMS Track Specification. However after reviewing actual data the maximum speeds at the start of a corner trajectory line up reasonably well with the graph on page 41.

              The straight ahead run off distances calculated appear to be about right. That figure is to provide adequate distance should a rider have a machine or physiological problem. The wall at Turn 7 is about 20m to 25m too close. Turn 1 and turn 6 have inadequate straight ahead run off. Those three corners have had fatalities and serious injuries when motorcycles have run straight on for various reasons. The objective is to arrest a fallen rider regardless of the reason for the fall.

              As a professional Engineer with training in safety management I find it very frustrating when I hear and read comments that try to turn the reasons for death and injury onto the rider or machine ... "but his brakes failed ... but he passed out ...".

              Folks that's not how you mange safety regardless of the activity. You develop engineering solutions to mitigate foreseeable risks.

              The correct thought process is to consider the possibly of a brake failure on a motorcycle or car and engineer a solution to prevent the rider or car slamming into a barrier and being seriously injured or killed. Why do modern motor cars have airbags, seat belts, crumple zones, ABS, traction control, stability control etc? It's because engineering solutions have been installed to mitigate the foreseeable risks to give us a fighting chance if we run into a tree for whatever reason.

              To me it underlines a venue like Barbagallo needs professional safety management with the appropriately qualified people.

              The document allows the straight ahead run off distance to be less if arrestor aggregate is used. So I'd take a guess if arrestor material was used at Turn 7 the wall could stay. The wall on the south side is supposed to be straight however it drifts northwards. It should be straightened.

              The green line represents the current solid barriers.

              The independent Engineering auditor will have the latest international software and will most likely generate different run off lengths. I'd be surprised if they weren't in the same ball park.

              Last edited by Scott52; 18-06-2016, 08:51 AM.
              I'll be riding for you #52, my dear son, Cameron Taylor Elliott 1985-2009
              2008 CBR600RR and 2010 GSXR750 Track Bikes, KTM530EXC Enduro bike wrist breaker

              Comment


              • #8
                Great work Scott.

                One question - should this be done with a foresight to future motorcycle performance improvements? (or have you done this already?) If we look back 10-15 years ago, tyres were not as good and the average litrebike was only making 150-160hp. As they are manking 200hp ish these days and tyres have been improved significantly we are seeing higher terminal speeds and corner speeds - in another 10-15 years we could see similar improvements again. I dare say a track re-surfacing could also bring about similar performance increases - many lap records were set within a year or two of the last resurfacing and they took 10 years of tyre and bike development to beat as the track deteriorated at the same time.

                It would probably only add 5-6km/hr to all the values you are already working with, but that should equate to a ~2sec improvement in lap time.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by out_in_front View Post
                  Great work Scott.

                  One question - should this be done with a foresight to future motorcycle performance improvements? (or have you done this already?) If we look back 10-15 years ago, tyres were not as good and the average litrebike was only making 150-160hp. As they are manking 200hp ish these days and tyres have been improved significantly we are seeing higher terminal speeds and corner speeds - in another 10-15 years we could see similar improvements again. I dare say a track re-surfacing could also bring about similar performance increases - many lap records were set within a year or two of the last resurfacing and they took 10 years of tyre and bike development to beat as the track deteriorated at the same time.

                  It would probably only add 5-6km/hr to all the values you are already working with, but that should equate to a ~2sec improvement in lap time.
                  Yes definitely. Changes to run off should be designed based on likely speeds and lap times in five years time.

                  I've had some questions about this diagram via PM's

                  The white lines represent the actual lengths required based on the formula on page 42. The dimension D2 is fixed which doesn't make sense. For the first couple of lines from the straight ahead trajectory the calculated distance is clearly inadequate. For turn 7 D2 calculated to about 40m and D1 about 120m.

                  You can see the D1 projection goes past the existing barrier then the first D2 line at ten degrees deviation is only about a third of the distance.

                  The formula has been around for decades and underlines the complacency by MA. There's sophisticated software available to do all of this work but good old MA stuck with (V)2/300 whatever that means.

                  Until some professional engineers are employed by MA expect safety thinking to remain out of date.
                  I'll be riding for you #52, my dear son, Cameron Taylor Elliott 1985-2009
                  2008 CBR600RR and 2010 GSXR750 Track Bikes, KTM530EXC Enduro bike wrist breaker

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    FIM WSBK lap record was set in 1999 by Steve Martin on a Ducati at 56.6seconds ...
                    Previous SBK Lap record set by Allerton in 2011 (55.53), dropped by 0.08 sec in 2016 to 55.449. SBK Pole position Record set in 2005 by Shannon Johnson (55.354), dropped by 0.32 seconds in 2016 to 55.029

                    Bike / Tyre development hasn't been as much as you think, except in helping with consistency, and making the "average" racer significantly faster, not affecting the top riders as much.... And the track re-surface in 2005/2006 didn't do as much as you think either, considering the SBK rule's didn't really start getting restricted until 2012, and the pole record has only just been broken this year.
                    Sponsored by:

                    Billetta Imports, Motorcycle Panel & Paint, Pirelli, YAMALUBE

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yep those pages need a serious update - 245 and 160 numbers are definitely defunct now. Barbs alone has 265 and the mid corner speed in the Basin is 165. I bet Phillip island is a heap more on both accounts (T1 - 300ish entry and 200ish mid corner) and even other tracks could beat it too.

                      Would it be worth adding a second run of the calcs with values that reflect the real life data rather than the obviously out of date values? (I am assuming once everything has been set up it is just plug in the new numbers and get new results). I know that when I do my calcs for my job (generally for third party verification / DNV etc) I can add extra analysis over and above what the standards call for to show the client if something is still not as good as I beleive it should be.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by out_in_front View Post
                        Yep those pages need a serious update - 245 and 160 numbers are definitely defunct now. Barbs alone has 265 and the mid corner speed in the Basin is 165. I bet Phillip island is a heap more on both accounts (T1 - 300ish entry and 200ish mid corner) and even other tracks could beat it too.

                        Would it be worth adding a second run of the calcs with values that reflect the real life data rather than the obviously out of date values? (I am assuming once everything has been set up it is just plug in the new numbers and get new results). I know that when I do my calcs for my job (generally for third party verification / DNV etc) I can add extra analysis over and above what the standards call for to show the client if something is still not as good as I beleive it should be.
                        Remember the 245 and 160 numbers are only used as examples in the formula to give the non Engineer MA Track Inspectors half a chance of understanding it. The numbers we used for Turn 7 were 265 and 110.

                        Surprisingly the 110 figure lined up reasonably well with actual data. The 110 is the maximum speed at the start of the corner trajectory ... in other words at the point of commencing the turn. My own data for 62.55 lap showed I started the turn at close to 120km/hr. Mammolitti's data showed slightly higher.

                        You average the two numbers, square that average and divide it by 300. That gives a D1 of 117m. Where the 300 came from is probably long forgotten. There's new software that does all the good work for bodies like MA but they've not kept up to date.
                        I'll be riding for you #52, my dear son, Cameron Taylor Elliott 1985-2009
                        2008 CBR600RR and 2010 GSXR750 Track Bikes, KTM530EXC Enduro bike wrist breaker

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yep I get that - Obviously didnt read that bit right then.

                          There are a heap of other requirements in the document - track width of 11m for instance (250-300km/hr), that would change all these calculations again. Are they going to be part of the scope of this assesment?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Scott52 View Post
                            It's pretty scary when you see it like that. Always try not to look at the wall at turn 3 but surprising to see how far back that wall really should move and although you always know Skyline is going to be a big one I never realised how square you will hit it if you drop it at just the wrong point.

                            Thanks Scott 75's here we come
                            The Bend

                            Hurry Up!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by out_in_front View Post
                              Yep I get that - Obviously didnt read that bit right then.

                              There are a heap of other requirements in the document - track width of 11m for instance (250-300km/hr), that would change all these calculations again. Are they going to be part of the scope of this assesment?
                              I don't know what the terms of reference are. I'll be pointing things out like the track width for sure. I'm assuming they'll use the latest software to run simulations and design new run offs with arrestor material and relocated walls.

                              I've decided I will stay away from Hall Technical otherwise I'll be accused of trying to influence them. I'll send them an email with this diagram and some comments with my ideas and leave it at that. I've made enough enemies to keep me on my toes for a while.
                              I'll be riding for you #52, my dear son, Cameron Taylor Elliott 1985-2009
                              2008 CBR600RR and 2010 GSXR750 Track Bikes, KTM530EXC Enduro bike wrist breaker

                              Comment

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